Understanding God’s election

[cv5]

Wrong. It made them into spiritual Jews - the only true Jews - which all of the true believers have become.

So now you are telling us that you are a disciple of Garner Ted Armstrong?

 

[Rufus]

cv5 said "I literally do not believe a word you (BF) say."

Let us not lie or bear false witness but instead quote folks accurately. Thanks.

Lying and bearing false witness is rampant on this thread. You haven't noticed that by now? At least when I post an "FTFY" message, most people (you being the exception, evidently) recognize it for what it obviously is: sarcasm.

 

[cv5]

It would have been impossible for the warrior David to enter Jerusalem.

It certainly would have been after his victory in conquest.
Anyhoo.....this is a no-brainer.

 

[Rufus]

Biblical yes, transparent in terms of your theology (God must enable a person to be able to believe first ) not really.

Oh...I get that part into my message, as well, by imploring them to do various things, such as reading the scriptures for themselves, inviting them to church, offering sincere prayers to God to open their minds and hearts, etc.

 

[cv5]

You proved my point.
Thank you.

Its up to you to prove that the younger son of Luke 15 was a Calvinite.

I will save your keyboard from further cruel punishment:
He wasn't.

 

[HeIsHere]

Oh...I get that part into my message, as well, by imploring them to do various things, such as reading the scriptures for themselves, inviting them to church, offering sincere prayers to God to open their minds and hearts, etc.

Do you also tell them that God may not have them on the "enabling list" created from before time began?

 

[GWH]

Nonsense! God does the "love the world" -- just not in the distributive sense as you think -- but in the limited, biblical sense to wit:

Rev 5:9
9 And they sang a new song:

"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
NIV

Rev 7:9
9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
NIV

Notice what Rev 5:9 DOESN'T say: It doesn't say that "with your blood you purchased each and every man" from..."

And many people over the ages have never had the "opportunity" to hear the gospel, let alone believe it! For starters, what about all the infants, babies and small kids die without having a true knowledge of good and evil? When you use the word "must", you clearly imply that God is morally obligated to save mankind. But if he's morally obligated, this further implies that mankind is entitled to his salvation. But if mankind is entitled to salvation, then salvation cannot possibly be by grace since Grace is God's unmerited favor that he gives to undeserving sinners.

Or what about Ishmael and Esau: What opportunity did they have to enter into a saving covenant relationship with God? Their eternal, spiritual destiny was determined in eternity before any of them did anything good or bad.

You really should strive to get on the same page as the bible.

Here are the pages of the Bible I am on:

Synonyms for “elect” include: elect (MT 24:22,24&31) = disciples (MT 28:7-8,13,16&19) = reborn (JN 3:3&7) = believers (JN 3:16, 5:24, 6:35-40 & 20:29) = saints (ACTS 9:32, RM 1:7, 8:27) = Christians (ACTS 11:26, 26:28) = saved (ACTS 16:30-31) = those in Christ (RM 8:1, EPH 1:1-13) = Spirit-led (RM 8:2-16) = children/sons/heirs of God (RM 8:14-21) = the grafted in (RM 11:17-24) = sanctified/church member (1CR 1:2) = God’s people (1CR 16:1) = church/saints (2CR 1:1 = the faithful/holy (EPH 1:1, PHP 1:2) = chosen in Christ (EPH 1:4-11) = members of God’s household (EPH 2:19) = soldier/worker (PHL v.2&24)

Calvinists interpret RM 11:5-7 and EPH 1:4-14 as teaching God predetermines some souls to be saved or elect, while others are condemned to hell. The need is to harmonize these Scriptures with other Scriptures teaching that souls have moral free will and thus are accountable for choosing whether to cooperate with God, including the following:

DT 30:19, “This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.”

MT 23:37, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”

JN 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

1TM 2:3b-4, “God our Savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”

A way to harmonize these two categories of Scripture is as follows:

1. Paul views the elect as those who receive God’s grace though faith instead of trying to merit salvation by obeying moral laws (RM 11:5-6, EPH 2:4-10). God initiates; souls cooperate–or not.

2. RM 11:7 says, “What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did”, which seems to speak of both corporate Israel and elect individuals including those from corporate “Gentiledom” (who comprise corporate Christendom aka the spiritual church/kingdom of God). An all-loving God would have elected to give everyone a new heart, and on what just basis would He elect some sinners rather than others? Thus we conclude that some Jews cooperated with God, but others did not and shut their ears and eyes to GW (RM 11:7-10, ACTS 28:25-28)

3. The Jews as a whole did not fall completely beyond recovery or from the possibility of being saved, because the possibility of Gentiles receiving salvation may make some of them envious and prompt them also to accept God’s grace (RM 11:11-14, 1TM 2:3-4, JN 3:16).

4. Gentiles should not feel superior to Jews, because all are broken off the tree of life because of unbelief or grafted into the tree of life by faith (RM 11:15-21, DT 30:19, MT 23:37).

5. God is stern toward those who reject His POS and kind to all (1TM 2:3-4, JN 3:16) who accept grace, if they continue to cooperate rather than persist in unbelief/unwillingness (RM 11:22-24, DT 30:19, MT 23:37).

6. God allows Jews to be hardened and become ungodly enemies just as the Gentiles were (cf. ACTS 28:26-27), so that He may have mercy on them all–that is, on all He chooses to elect, which is all (1TM 2:3-4, JN 3:16) who reflect His love by accepting Messiah/Christ (DT 30:19, MT 23:37). In this way His POS is just (2TH 1:6).

 

[rogerg]

What does this say?

Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free,
there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 5:17

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.
The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. ​

Gentiles do not become Jews.
In Christ? Both Jew and gentiles now become the one new creation!

What we have been predestined for? In Him we were chosen to be his Bride!

Other saved people from other dispensations? They were not chosen to be the Bride of Christ.

It's Finished!

Do you see " you are all one in Christ" above", and "the old has passed away, the new has come"? Therefore, it is impossible for there to be any carryover for those saved from the old; everything was begun anew.

Everyone saved, whether Jew, Gentile, or otherwise (whatever that may consist of), have been made SPIRITUAL Jews by God, and being spiritual Jews, citizens of the Israel of God, and being citizens of the Israel of God, the bride of Christ. Did you not understand the verses you posted - that in Christ, there is no longer human divisions between those saved whoever they might be - that spiritually speaking, earthly considerations no longer apply. There are now only two spiritual categories: the saved and the unsaved. Everything else is meaningless.

[Gal 6:15-16 KJV] 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[cv5]

Do you also tell them that God may not have them on the "enabling list" created from before time began?

Of course they don't.
It would make them and their "message" sound the way it sounds on this thread:

Draconian, repulsive and horrific being preached by a bunch of doom-bots.

You see, the double predestination that they deny will be quickly evaluated by any man on the street to be not only undeniable but inevitable.

 

[rogerg]

So now you are telling us that you are a disciple of Garner Ted Armstrong?

Huh? That makes no sense, whatsoever.

 

[Genez]

Nonsense! God does the "love the world" -- just not in the distributive sense as you think -- but in the limited, biblical sense to wit:


Notice what Rev 5:9 DOESN'T say: It doesn't say that "with your blood you purchased each and every man".

He purchased believers for what?
To be His slaves.

We are now to be slaves to righteousness.
It had nothing to do with being purchased from sin.

You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Romans 6:18



You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.

1 Corinthians 7:23​

.....

 

[Genez]

Do you see " you are all one in Christ" above", and "the old has passed away, the new has come"? Therefore, it is impossible for there to be any carryover for those saved from the old; everything was begun anew.

Everyone saved, whether Jew, Gentile, or otherwise (whatever that may consist of), have been made SPIRITUAL Jews by God, and being spiritual Jews

Who teaches you this stuff?

Not spiritual Jews. But, something that is an entirely new creation!

The Greek translated "new creation" meant something entirely new.
Something that is nothing like anything existing before.
So how can you be a spiritual Jew?

Yet, we now receive the same kind of blessings that faithful Jews in the past knew of through the same vine that supplies them

 

[GWH]

Lying and bearing false witness is rampant on this thread. You haven't noticed that by now? At least when I post an "FTFY" message, most people (you being the exception, evidently) recognize it for what it obviously is: sarcasm.

Yes, I do not know what FTFY means (I hope I did not just cuss :^)

 

[Genez]

You incongruous word salad is less than convincing. Much less.

Those who speak word salads, speak with a 'fork' tongue.

...........

 

[Genez]

Yes, I do not know what FTFY means (I hope I did not just cuss :^)

"Fixed That For You."

But he did not post it as sarcasm.
For when posting it in quote attributed directly to you?

He posted it as a misrepresentation and lie of what you said.

(he still has some of that total depravity clinging to his internal organs, perhaps?)

 

[rogerg]

So how can you be a spiritual Jew?

When someone becomes saved/born-again, they are a completely new creation, spiritually speaking.
Those saved/born/again, become citizens of the Israel God, also known as spiritual Israel (to distinguish it from earthly Israel). As citizens of spiritual Israel, they are spiritual Jews, new creations in a biblical sense. So, you didn't realize there is a spiritual Israel (Israel of God) with the spiritual Jews that spiritually inhabit it apart from and different than the earthly? The earthly Israel no longer has any special spiritual significance with God. It is only spiritual Israel - the Israel of God - that does.
If you can keep that distinction in mind and apply it correctly, the Bible will make much more sense to you, reducing any confusion and misappropriation for you.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

That is a much more wholesome understanding of the scripture.

The way you behave is a direct reflection of what you believe.

I believe that as we come to believe right according to the gospel , our behavior changes and follows our belief.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I don't knowingly choose lies because God's grace KEEPS me! It preserves me!

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Partially biblical rather than thoroughly, because Christ died to pay the penalty for sin of all humanity.

“and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Jesus was sent both primarily to the Jews in fulfillment of the OT and also to the Gentiles as He instituted the NT as signified by the Great Commission.

The grafting in of the Gentiles should be understood as being retroactive per the provisional gospel and thus eternal spiritually. If God loves the world (JN 3:16) and wants everyone to be saved (2TM 2:4), then He must provide an opportunity. God’s just judgment is illustrated by Jesus in the Parable of the Talents (MT 25:14-29), which indicates that God will judge souls on the basis of the truth (Word = Christ per JN 1:1f.) they have received.

Three ways God/Christ is encountered or received include: 1. general revelation, which includes meditating on the natural world or God’s supernatural work. Paul says men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and divine nature (love) are manifested by creation (RM 1:20), and because a proto-gospel has been proclaimed to everyone under heaven implicitly or in pre-NT foreshadowings (CL 1:23, RM 10:13-18, GL 3:8). 2. the inner conscience, a natural or “common” sense (RM 2:14-16), which manifests morality or a moral Authority in every culture; and 3. special revelation (1PT 1:8-12), which refers to the biblical and especially NT teaching regarding God’s history of salvation.

Again, the Parable of the Talents indicates that souls are saved via faith in God/ Christ as revealed (cf. 1CR 10:1-5). Truthseekers around the world in all times are pilgrims at various places along the road of life, and all true roads eventually lead to the Way to eternal life in heaven (JN 14:6, ACTS 24:14, PHP 2:10-11). All truth leads to One Way.

“Jesus was sent both primarily to the Jews in fulfillment of the OT”

amen

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Before Jesus died

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:5-6‬ ‭

as jesus death approached

“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭

after Jesus died and rose

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus came to Jews first and then he sent those Jews who believed out to all people as witnesses of the gospel so we all too can share in salvation