Understanding God’s election
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Still don't understand election.Wow.
That makes completely sense.
God creates his "elected" supernaturally all the while creating other people who were never going to be elected to fill in the gaps and make life interesting I guess?
I think it is back to the drawing board for you .... not computing with how the word elect is used in scripture I believe @Inquisitor did a good post on it.
I completely understand "faith/belief" and how it is used within the various places within the context of the scripture and what it meant to the people at the time.
Faith always precedes regeneration.
And faith is not a work when a person exercises faith, it is the only way one can receive the gift of salvation.
It actually defies logic and scripture to think otherwise.
God sovereignly decreed that man, in order to be functional in God's image, must have volition as a reflection of having sovereignty of his own within his own domain.
God honors man's sovereignty to a highest level.
So much so....
That God must honor man's wish to reject God.
Its not God's will that any perish...
Man in not unable to be made willing.
Man's fallen nature entraps his soul.
That obstacle must be eliminated first before man can be able to choose for knowing God.
God's grace over takes and subdues the flesh, thus making a soul able to respond.
Without grace no one could believe...
Grace makes it possible. Grace does not guarantee that one will choose to believe.
Grace simply leaves the one choosing not to believe to be without excuse!
They deny what I said is true.
Yet, when asked? They always come up short in explaining in what way what they claim, is true.
as far as I can tell what you say is true I don't know why they wouldn't listen except for the fact that if one is so firm in what they think is truth that they are unable to learn from others then maybe they shouldn't be debating.
We need less teacher and more students less so called truth and more seeking the truth. I have seen to much senselessness here to say that truth is here at least not truth that I have seen on a understanding kind of way but they won't listen or admit that they might be wrong my friend I would say your preaching to the choir but you already know that.
I am however inclined to mention a few names here that I have seen do well such as @HeIsHere I have been paying attention and watching.
It's called 'approbation lust.'
Lusting for the approval of others....
They do not want correction.
They crave the approval of those who have an affinity for the same false teaching.
It's a gang mentality.
Sometimes we can say all the right things but to no avail some simply refuse to listen. It requires a teachable heart to be in debates such as this if you just see what you believe and nothing else then even if the truth is shown to you then you will be blind to it and instead blindly follow your own doctrine.
I myself have been guilty of this at times so I know the signs
True. It would be good for them to experience hell until they realize how hateful God would be not to provide a way for them to become elect.
Excellent point, Blain, which is why I post the kerygma from time to time, hoping to keep the focus on what we have in common, as follows:
The kerygma/GRFS should be every Christian’s creed, and only belief in this crucial truth should be viewed as a test for orthodoxy or heresy. As Paul wrote in Romans 10:9, “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Conversely, judgments concerning a person’s spiritual orientation or ultimate destiny should not be made on the basis of didachaic or secondary doctrines. (If any judgment is made, it should begin with a self-examination per MT 7:1&5, 2CR 13:5-8).
A major reason many Christians throughout history have not manifested the love and unity of God’s Spirit (EPH 4:3) as well as they should is because of failure to realize this truth. If they did, it would free them to speak honestly and fellowship without becoming unduly upset about relatively minor issues. They would receive God’s blessing as peacemakers, who draw inclusive circles around people based on the kerygma rather than denominational lines between them due to didachaic differences. Jesus prayed for spiritual unity (cf. JN 17:20-23, “May they be one…”).
The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:
- There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
- Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) when they reject God’s salvation or DOD (JN 3:18).
- Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ or the way (means of providing salvation) that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11), although pre-NT truthseekers could/can learn a proto-gospel via general revelation combined with conscience.
- Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
- Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning God’s Word everyone cooperates fully with His will (RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).
Such a good point and insight!
I know someone waiting and waiting for regeneration so they can believe, they are so torn up about it every day. This person has convinced themselves they have no capacity to believe the Gospel because they consider themselves the worst of the worst.
This dogma has real world very serious consequences.
When I had some of this teaching in my being and people showed me the logical inconsistencies and how scripture is wretched from its context to create this "system" I really began to question it.
It also affects how we see the people around us and creates a very cultic/static/fixed mindset.
I guess it takes a lot to say, something here is not sitting right with me even though I have thought this for years.
I think if one is a member of a Reformed Church or a church with a strong Beza bent then that "group identity" is a strong bond that also keeps one inside that thought system.
I just hope and pray that slowly this system crumbles under its own weight over time. It is not the God of scripture, God Himself calls us to "belief/faith" it is what pleases Him and the more we believe the truth about His nature (God is Love) the more He reveals about Himself to the believer.
Yes I have as well... I am so glad everyday to be freed from a dogma that stunts one's growth and make no mistake "TULIP" is harmful to one's heart, mind and soul.
If one always has the maxim "God is Love" (as defined by scripture) as one's starting point I think it is a good buffer against wrong doctrine.
Unfortunately too many people read scripture with a "spirit of condemnation" and they have a very fixed mindset.
Some people do break away so there is always hope.