Total Depravity
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While the blame is not completely the sinner's (otherwise why would Jesus also warn thd tempters not to cause children to stumble?), the sinner is held accountable for their own sins. They are not off the hook for casting off thier own conscience
You are still arguing against my points from your presupposition of Omni-faceted Imperfecrion: a presupposition not supported by scripture, but comes from gnostic philosophy passed down from the Grreks.
You sidestepped exegesis by alleging a fatal flaw. Maybe you can get back to addressing the exegesis.
You are still arguing against my points from your presupposition of Omni-faceted Imperfecrion: a presupposition not supported by scripture, but comes from gnostic philosophy passed down from the Grreks.
You sidestepped exegesis by alleging a fatal flaw. Maybe you can get back to addressing the exegesis.
does Leviticus say, offer whatever you have? or is it extremely specific about what is acceptable?
God tells Cain to do well - Cain knows what offering is acceptable. And the text does not say Cain brought fruit that was not of the first of the harvest; it says Abel brought of the first of the flock, but Cain brought of the harvest. the contrast is not between first and not first, but between a lamb and a fruit.
if the reason Cain's offering was not acceptable was because it wasn't the first of the harvest, why does the scripture not say so?
God tells Cain to do well - Cain knows what offering is acceptable. And the text does not say Cain brought fruit that was not of the first of the harvest; it says Abel brought of the first of the flock, but Cain brought of the harvest. the contrast is not between first and not first, but between a lamb and a fruit.
if the reason Cain's offering was not acceptable was because it wasn't the first of the harvest, why does the scripture not say so?
That does not negate my point at all. Saying our will is a slave to sin or righteousness doesn't in ANY WAY suggest we don't have a choice. What's you're point here? Are you suggesting Jesus was wrong when He says our will is a slave of sin or righteousness? It's your side of this debate that seems to think if we "believe" God is sovereign and in control of EVERYTHING that is means we are robots and God is evil. That's YOUR characterization of our belief. I don't "believe" what you think I do, and this argument is against your straw man, not my belief at all. So again what's your point here?
Because the bible states that all our righteousness is as filthy rags.
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
All our righteousness is not going to count as good enough.
We are carnal and selfish which is why we need to be born again
Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
Mar 14:38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
God didn't give us a weak flesh at creation.
But we all have a weak flesh to overcome.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Gal 5:16-17
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
There are many verses that show that we are fallen and need to be born again.
We are not guilty of Adam's sin because sin is a choice.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Adam sinned and so do we but we are only guilty for the sins we choose to commit.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Because we sin = death
we all need Jesus
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
All our righteousness is not going to count as good enough.
We are carnal and selfish which is why we need to be born again
Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
Mar 14:38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
God didn't give us a weak flesh at creation.
But we all have a weak flesh to overcome.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Gal 5:16-17
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
There are many verses that show that we are fallen and need to be born again.
We are not guilty of Adam's sin because sin is a choice.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Adam sinned and so do we but we are only guilty for the sins we choose to commit.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Because we sin = death
we all need Jesus
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Have you read the context of that verse before? Who was the prophet addressing? What kind of behaviour that that group considered "righteousness" was God calling dirty rags? Does a judgment made of one nation at one time in history mean that that judgment applies to all nations of all times?
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@Jimbone stated:
Sorry Jesus says we are never free. We are slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. There is no "free" will.
In this statement you are asserting the we are never free, which means ALL our cognitive processes, biases, beliefs and actions are predetermined.
Jesus says "believe" He is affirming agency, which means they are not predetermined.
If you have comfort in a god who gives "belief" to some and not others that is your freedom to believe, slave to sin does not mean a person is morally incapable of responding to TRUTH.
"Your faith has saved you." Not the faith I gave you.
If Jesus cannot convince you neither I can say.
Sorry Jesus says we are never free. We are slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. There is no "free" will.
In this statement you are asserting the we are never free, which means ALL our cognitive processes, biases, beliefs and actions are predetermined.
Jesus says "believe" He is affirming agency, which means they are not predetermined.
If you have comfort in a god who gives "belief" to some and not others that is your freedom to believe, slave to sin does not mean a person is morally incapable of responding to TRUTH.
"Your faith has saved you." Not the faith I gave you.
If Jesus cannot convince you neither I can say.
These texts do not say that the unrenewed spirit cannot do any good. A child is weak, but she can give a flower to a sick person out of compassion. Weak flesh does not imply the person's spirit cannot master the flesh, otherwise why would Jesus tell His apostles to pray so that they not fall into the temptation coming their way..
You are reading far more into the text than it actually says.
You are reading far more into the text than it actually says.
This says that if you keep on living according to the flesh, you will die, i.e. you will keep on living separated from the true Life.
But if one keeps on subduing the flesh by setting the mind on what the Spirit is reveal;ing to us, we shall keep on living connected to the true Life.
This doea not say that the unregenerate cannot set their mind on things of the spirit and have limited success in doing what God by His Spirit reveals to be noble and good. You are again reading far more into the text than it actually says.
But if one keeps on subduing the flesh by setting the mind on what the Spirit is reveal;ing to us, we shall keep on living connected to the true Life.
This doea not say that the unregenerate cannot set their mind on things of the spirit and have limited success in doing what God by His Spirit reveals to be noble and good. You are again reading far more into the text than it actually says.
Yrs, you cannot keep on doing the things you desire to do, if you keep on mulling over things that the flesh's prioritises. If we choose to set our mind on what the Spiit is revealing to us as good, we will be able to command our body to submit to the Spirit's priorities.
Again,, this does not say that the unregenerate man is incapable of setting his mind on things the Holy Sprit presents to him as noble and good, so as to achieve them sometimes. You are reading inro rhw rext mpre than it actually says. It is talking to the regenerate about how the regenerate can live more consistently according to the Spirit. I is not saying anything about the capabilities of the unregenerate.
Again,, this does not say that the unregenerate man is incapable of setting his mind on things the Holy Sprit presents to him as noble and good, so as to achieve them sometimes. You are reading inro rhw rext mpre than it actually says. It is talking to the regenerate about how the regenerate can live more consistently according to the Spirit. I is not saying anything about the capabilities of the unregenerate.
It seems we have a solid grasp upon what the true meaning of [Total Depravity] means by some of the explanations within this Thread.
I wish then to say from those explanations my understanding of them. Which simply put, a person born into this world has no ability to seek after God for salvation (even though Acts 17 claims God designed it that and so does Genesis 4) [26 .......then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.] <----If we notice, Acts 17 is being fulfilled [26 From one He made every nation of men to live on the face of the earth 27 They were to seek God].
So we see in Genesis 4 after Seth was born that men did seek after God [26 .......then began men to call upon the name of the LORD].
But I also propose what Peter said in Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and let each of you be immersed in the name of Messiah Yeshua for the removal of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Ruach ha-Kodesh.
39 For the promise is for you and your children
I want to discuss Acts 2:39 For the promise is for you and your children
...
1. Many people, who are Christian right now (not all but many), were born into a family that either for generations or at least one generation was already serving the Lord [Jesus].
2. Babies were born into these families and from birth were already in a Church atmosphere listening and hearing the Gospel being preached and taught until they grew old enough to convert into Christians themselves.
3. They then got married in the Church to other Church people of the "opposite gender" and created more babies born into the church environment and their babies followed the same pattern as point number [2].
^
I personally do not see much Depravity here because Peter said if a person gets saved then the Promise is for their children and the cycle keeps repeating itself.
...
My understanding of Total Depravity is for the person, not born into an environment that is influenced by Jesus Christ. They are born into non-believer families who do not spend time discussing-worshiping-praising-praying-living for the Lord. They have no idea who Jesus is. That seems more on the lines of Total Depravity. Even though Genesis 4 and Acts 17 claims they could seek God. And Romans 1 shows us God makes Himself known through [manifestation] unto everyone.
But those who fall into the category of Acts 2:39 For the promise is for you and your children <--- I do not see Total Depravity anywhere. They are literally born into an environment where as a newborn growing up constantly hearing the Gospel being preached. And the [percentage] of those newborns raised in the church hearing the Gospel preached and taught are sky rocketing high 90s% they also will become Christian themselves. That doesn't appear anywhere to expose any sort of Depravity at all.
So I disagree that Total Depravity is a stigma that can be applied to all human beings.
I wish then to say from those explanations my understanding of them. Which simply put, a person born into this world has no ability to seek after God for salvation (even though Acts 17 claims God designed it that and so does Genesis 4) [26 .......then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.] <----If we notice, Acts 17 is being fulfilled [26 From one He made every nation of men to live on the face of the earth 27 They were to seek God].
So we see in Genesis 4 after Seth was born that men did seek after God [26 .......then began men to call upon the name of the LORD].
But I also propose what Peter said in Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and let each of you be immersed in the name of Messiah Yeshua for the removal of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Ruach ha-Kodesh.
39 For the promise is for you and your children
I want to discuss Acts 2:39 For the promise is for you and your children
...
1. Many people, who are Christian right now (not all but many), were born into a family that either for generations or at least one generation was already serving the Lord [Jesus].
2. Babies were born into these families and from birth were already in a Church atmosphere listening and hearing the Gospel being preached and taught until they grew old enough to convert into Christians themselves.
3. They then got married in the Church to other Church people of the "opposite gender" and created more babies born into the church environment and their babies followed the same pattern as point number [2].
^
I personally do not see much Depravity here because Peter said if a person gets saved then the Promise is for their children and the cycle keeps repeating itself.
...
My understanding of Total Depravity is for the person, not born into an environment that is influenced by Jesus Christ. They are born into non-believer families who do not spend time discussing-worshiping-praising-praying-living for the Lord. They have no idea who Jesus is. That seems more on the lines of Total Depravity. Even though Genesis 4 and Acts 17 claims they could seek God. And Romans 1 shows us God makes Himself known through [manifestation] unto everyone.
But those who fall into the category of Acts 2:39 For the promise is for you and your children <--- I do not see Total Depravity anywhere. They are literally born into an environment where as a newborn growing up constantly hearing the Gospel being preached. And the [percentage] of those newborns raised in the church hearing the Gospel preached and taught are sky rocketing high 90s% they also will become Christian themselves. That doesn't appear anywhere to expose any sort of Depravity at all.
So I disagree that Total Depravity is a stigma that can be applied to all human beings.