Total Depravity
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the aspect of first fruits in Genesis 4 is not unimportant, but the aspect of blood sacrifice cannot be ignored.
it's something i have actually argued with my pastor about, ha! and i lost. i wanted to bring up first fruits, but he showed me that the offering of blood was the real key in the passage, by demonstrating the parallels between Genesis 3 and 4 - and in particular my argument could not account for what God said to Cain, that the blood of Abel cried to Him from the ground.
but both are present - Christ is the Firstfruits, and Christ is The Lamb.
that Abel offered by Faith - they are commemorating the slaying of the lamb to make the garments for their parents. it is proto-Passover.
and if it is Passover, Cain must offer a lamb. and where must he get it from? who keeps sheep?
the shepherd his brother, that he despised, refusing to take the gift from his hand, and slew.
remind you of any particular group of people who routinely offered sacrifices around 1st century AD?
who were offered a perfect Lamb?
No one has actually addressed the use of the word "depravity", let alone "total depravity".
Depravity means moral corruption or wickedness, and total depravity would be total wickedness. Now is this even true?
There is a huge difference between being born with a sin nature and even having the sin nature (while unsaved) and total wickedness. Indeed Romans 2 refutes this idea completely.
So the Westminster Confession of Faith has made some very serious errors in defining Total Depravity (not a term used in the Confession):
II. By this sin they [Adam and Eve] fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.
III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.
IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
None of this is true, but is based on a false interpretation of Scripture.
For the most part, I understood that the offering was to be a blood offering and that the Cain / Abel offering related to the slaying of the animal to cover the shame of the sin of Adam and Eve.
I also believe that Cain's offering was not by faith ... which is the manner God has instructed man to approach Him.
I found it interesting that the NET footnote stated "The content of the offering (vegetables, as opposed to animals) was not the critical issue" ... and I wholeheartedly agree that it is "the attitude of the offerer" which is key ... without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Because Scripture is silent as to the instruction given, there's a lot we do not know about the offerings brought by Cain and Abel ... other than Abel's offering was by faith and Cain's offering was not by faith. And even after Cain erred, God still reached out to him to give instruction ... which Cain rejected and ended up killing his brother and he was no longer in the presence of the Lord (Gen 4:16).posthuman said:
right ... because they sought it not by faith ... they stumbled at that stumbling stone.posthuman said:
thanks for clarifying the NET footnote.
.
Genesis 4:4
Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the LORD respected Abel and his offering
how do you get the fat out of a lamb without shedding blood?
Faith and works can not be seperated. Able had faith and did what was pleasing to God.
Cain tried to do it HIS way not GODS way.
Faith believes and obeys.
Read the faith chapter..
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 11:7-
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark.....
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed;....
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:..
24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;....
Notice faith = action, works.
Godly works reveal the faith.
By faith, and through faith..
David and Daniel etc....
Following this point.
Heb 12:5-6
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Cain was chastened. Because God still loved him.
Cain tried to do it HIS way not GODS way.
Faith believes and obeys.
Read the faith chapter..
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 11:7-
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark.....
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed;....
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:..
24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;....
Notice faith = action, works.
Godly works reveal the faith.
By faith, and through faith..
David and Daniel etc....
Following this point.
Heb 12:5-6
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Cain was chastened. Because God still loved him.
I don't think many fully agrees on what total depravity means.
It is not a biblical term.
But there are lots of verses.
I'll try to simplify it.
Do you think the bible teaches that when we are born.
We are guilty of Adam's sin
We are not guilty of Adam's sin.
It is not a biblical term.
But there are lots of verses.
I'll try to simplify it.
Do you think the bible teaches that when we are born.
We are guilty of Adam's sin
We are not guilty of Adam's sin.
Does anyone believe this?
I believe the fallen nature was inherited, but not the act of sin.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
I believe the Bible teaches, in Jesus' own words, that you must be born again, from above, of the Spirit.
That those who are born twice, die once, escaping the second everlasting death. Those who are born
but once remain of the natural world and all that is not in Him at the end of this age will pass away.
Being born again represents a new start.
Letting go of the old life and living a new life in Jesus.
Joh 3:5-6
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Referring to baptism
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:10-13
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
It is all about death to the flesh and living for the Spirit.
I agree "we must be born again"
We are told to repent and be baptised..
Should I repent of the original sin Adam committed?
Letting go of the old life and living a new life in Jesus.
Joh 3:5-6
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Referring to baptism
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:10-13
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
It is all about death to the flesh and living for the Spirit.
You didn't really answer the question.
I agree "we must be born again"
We are told to repent and be baptised..
Should I repent of the original sin Adam committed?
Being born again is a spiritual reality. The natural man is hostile toward God and dead in his trespasses and sins, in need of a spiritual rebirth in order to attain to life ever after... otherwise, he will suffer the second death at the end of this age following the resurrection and judgment of all. We do not repent of Adam's sin, but our own, for all lived as children of wrath at one time.
8:21 When Adonai smelled the soothing aroma, Adonai said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, even though the inclination of the heart of humankind is evil from youth. Nor will I ever again smite all living creatures, as I have done.[/QUOTE]
It was not the smell of blood that pleased God, was it?
It was not the smell of blood that pleased God, was it?
i did not optimally phrase my earlier reply about an offering in which blood was shed.
but the point is that blood was shed for the offering Abel brought, but not for that brought by Cain.
'without shedding of blood there is no remission of sin' is written - where do we suppose this comes from?
why are they making an offering? how many times have they done this? how old are they? did their parents also do this? the text indicates it is a specific day - a repeated thing, an annual thing.
what day is it?
i don't think you can deny there was an element of the shedding of blood of an innocent creature in Abel's offering, but not in Cains. so is there an image of Christ in what Abel did, and an image of antichrist in what Cain did? what are the details of that typology?
as i put earlier, first fruits is not absent here. but blood is a much more central theme.
What your translation renders as "from the womb" and "from birth" are the Hebrew words RaKham ((womb) with the prepositional prefix "M"; and BeTeN with the prefix "M". The prefix "M" meaning, among other things "from".
From can be used in English to denote something coming out of the midst of something else ("Milk comes from cows."); and something coming away from a position near something else ("I walked from the table to the front door". or "She stalked him from the north.").
Koine Greek has two different prepositions for these two different meanings: ex means out of the midst of; and apo means away from a position outside of".
The LXX rendered the Hebrew "M" prefix in this verse as the Greek "apo". They understood the psalmist as saying that those who are wicked go astray from a position some time distant from when they were in the belly and in the womb. They did not think the psalmist was saying the baby was astray in the womb and belly and exited the womb and belly in that same state. The understood that the baby left the womb innocent, and became guilty by going astray at some time distant from their time in the womb/belly.
A fish is hatched in seawater, but the fertilised egg and the developing fry does not have sea water in it. A semi-permeable membrane allows fresh water to enter the egg while eliminating the salt. Other wise the fry would become pickled before it hatched. Jesus was born in a cave and conceived in the city of Nazareth.This does not mean that Jesus had some of the city of Nazareth in Him, and some cave in Him. "In Nazareth" and "in a cave" are describing the environment around Jesus at his birth and conception.
The psalmist was born in an environment of,/ surrounded by iniquity; and he was conceived in an environment of/surrounded by sin. WE are all conceived and born into a culture infected by sin and iniquity, but we are protected from its influence on our conscience in the womb. While in the womb we cannot do anything good or bad, since we have no law to infringe against.
It is some time after we are born that we hear some moral law, understand it in terms of moral goodness, and are tempted to act against it. The sin-infected culture around us weakens our resolve, and at some point we surrender to sin, and it enters in and begins to infect and corrupt our faculties within.
This verse agrees with my exegesis of the previous two texts. "From mankind's youth" sets the starting point of mankind's habitual inclination to sin, via the repetitive yielding to sin through the example and pressure of the surrounding culture, at youth, not at conception.
Would you like to rephrase your original question ,ore optimally?
"Why did Abel offer a dead sheep? I do not think God would have been pleased had Abel burnt a live sheep as an offering?
Why did Abel offer a sheep? His produce was sheep. He was a shepherd. Cain's produce was vegetables. He was a gardener. The reason Cain's offering was not accepted was because it was not his firstfruits.
There is a fundamental issue with your understanding. You seem to suggest that if an infant were born into a perfect culture and environment, they could lead a sinless life. However, it is important to recognize that no culture on earth is devoid of sin. Human culture began with Adam and Eve, and every child born since has sinned. There has never been a perfect human born of man and woman. It also appears that you are attributing the blame for sin to external sources rather than addressing the core issue: the spiritual deadness of humanity that necessitates Jesus for redemption.