Three Questions for Calvinists

[Cameron143]

Yes

Fair enough. I appreciate the honesty and the graciousness of your responses. I just would add 1 more thing. I know it is difficult for us all to reconsider long held conceptions, especially concerning God. I respect whatever position a person holds concerning salvation. But I also recognize that we all hold to ideas concerning God that are inaccurate. And we will only come to greater enjoyment and satisfaction in God as we discover Him more fully. That is always my desire in sharing. Job 42:5.

 

[rogerg]

I believe Scripture supports that some people are indeed chosen by God for His glorious purposes, but that doesn’t negate what is overwhelming blatantly obvious throughout the entire Bible, that the opportunity for everyone else to respond to the Gospel not only exists, it is desired by God that everyone would do so.

Incorrect.

[Jhn 6:44 KJV] 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[Jhn 12:37-38 KJV] 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
[Jhn 12:39-40 KJV] 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Given the interpretations you come up with, I think not.

I have given no interpretation at all. I use Scripture that Speaks for itself based upon how God wanted us to view it. One thing you will NEVER see me do, remove a Scripture from some place elsewhere, and then try to make that Verse match other Verses, that were also removed. Being raised Southern Baptist, has taught me, it's majorly the Baptists, that do as such and have perfected it in the majority of all of their Doctrines.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

There is a whole lot there and you are partly correct, but not according to your understanding. Suffice it to say, God, by and large, did not make Himself known to other nations intimately the way He did with Israel.

This is True!
However, like Egypt and Pharaoh, and all of kites [Amalekites and others] found in Deuteronomy, and other Nations, God would give Other Nations a chance to accept Him and be their God.

Now, had they Accepted, this would be a different conversation.
But, they did have Their Chance, even in the Old Testament.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

[Jhn 6:37-39 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

I don't know, man, you have actually made my Point.
Look at your Verse closely: and him that cometh to me
HIM = MAN
Man is CHOOSING here, he either WILL COME to Jesus or he will not!

This:
and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out
is the same as this:
if you search there, you will find your God, if only you seek with all your heart and soul—

Both Verses, to Search and Seek, or to Come [making an effort to come to Jesus] shows Responsibility on OUR Part.


Keep Trying, this is way too easy!

 

[Magenta]

Would you make that statement about OT times where God came almost singularly to only 1 nation?

What was Israel's purpose in God's plan for humanity?

Did He not set His gaze on them as/in fulfillment of His promises to Abraham?

 

[rogerg]

I have given no interpretation at all. I use Scripture that Speaks for itself based upon how God wanted us to view it. One thing you will NEVER see me do, remove a Scripture from some place elsewhere, and then try to make that Verse match other Verses, that were also removed. Being raised Southern Baptist, has taught me, it's majorly the Baptists, that do as such and have perfected it in the majority of all of their Doctrines.

Yeah, I know that's what you do but that's not what the Bible tells us to do and that's your problem. By doing it the way you do, you are being led to the earthly, not to the spiritual. The Bible was written by God to be on both levels simultaneously but we are to look for and find the spiritual, not the earthly.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Cameron143]

This is True!
However, like Egypt and Pharaoh, and all of kites [Amalekites and others] found in Deuteronomy, and other Nations, God would give Other Nations a chance to accept Him and be their God.

Now, had they Accepted, this would be a different conversation.
But, they did have Their Chance, even in the Old Testament.

God certainly has redeemed some out of every nation, tribe, kindred, and tongue. But as I read the OT, it is the exception and not the rule for God to exercise mercy and not judgment to other nations.

 

[Cameron143]

What was Israel's purpose in God's plan for humanity?

Did He not set His gaze on them as/in fulfillment of His promises to Abraham?

He did. And He did so largely to the exception of other nations.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Really, you use Verses that say Natural Man cannot know God?

19 because what can be known about God is plain to them—for God has shown it to them.
20 His invisible attributes—His eternal power and His divine nature—have been clearly seen ever since the creation of the world, being understood through the things that have been made. So people are without excuse—
21 for even though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God

Basically: what can be known about God is plain to them—for God has shown it to them, So people are without excuse—even though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God

Pretty obvious Natural man DOES KNOW GOD because GOD has : what can be known about God is plain to them—for God has shown it to them

which means, So people are without excuse—even though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God

 

[Magenta]

He did. And He did so largely to the exception of other nations.

Because His promise was made to Abraham's descendants through
Isaac and then Jacob renamed Israel, to bring forth the Messiah.

Even so, Israel was often just as bad or even worse than the other nations.

None were worthy.

 

[Cameron143]

Because His promise was made to Abraham's descendants through
Isaac and then Jacob renamed Israel, to bring forth the Messiah.

Even so, Israel was often just as bad or even worse than the other nations.

I agree. They certainly were. What do you think that means?

 

[Magenta]

I agree. They certainly were. What do you think that means?

What I already said: God was simply keeping His promise to Abraham.

God's plan all along was to bring forth man's redeemer.

Israel certainly has a very long history with God...

 

[Cameron143]

What I already said: God was simply keeping His promise to Abraham.

God's plan all along was to bring forth man's redeemer.

Israel certainly has a very long history with God...

Deuteronomy 7:6 says God chose the nation of Israel out of all the nations of the earth to be a holy people. He didn't choose them for anything about them. He sovereignly chose them and entered into a special relationship with them.
He certainly fulfilled His plans in doing so. Which tells us that God has always had a plan, that history is under divine control, and is working out according to a divine timetable.
I even imagine there is much more to be discovered in how and why God chose Israel.

 

[rogerg]

I don't know, man, you have actually made my Point.
Look at your Verse closely: and him that cometh to me
HIM = MAN
Man is CHOOSING here, he either WILL COME to Jesus or he will not!

This:
and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out
is the same as this:
if you search there, you will find your God, if only you seek with all your heart and soul—

Both Verses, to Search and Seek, or to Come [making an effort to come to Jesus] shows Responsibility on OUR Part.


Keep Trying, this is way too easy!

No, I did not make your point and that you think so is scary. No, man is NOT choosing there. The "him that cometh to me" are only those the Father gave to Christ and no one else.
If God hasn't specifically given someone to Christ, then they cannot/will not come to Christ and therefore not seek God.
How could you possibly miss that? Did you look only at the last part of the verse and not the first part? It's not that difficult to understand if you read the whole thing. How is it possible that you can't understand it?

Here look at it again.

Can you see the "giveth me", the "shall come to me", and the "that cometh to me"? They are all linked to each other and complete each other.

[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Read these verses too. They clearly tell us that natural (unsaved) man will NOT seek God.

[Rom 3:11-12 KJV] 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[Magenta]

Deuteronomy 7:6 says God chose the nation of Israel out of all the nations of the earth to be a holy people. He didn't choose them for anything about them. He sovereignly chose them and entered into a special relationship with them.
He certainly fulfilled His plans in doing so. Which tells us that God has always had a plan, that history is under divine control, and is working out according to a divine timetable.
I even imagine there is much more to be discovered in how and why God chose Israel.

The only "thing" about them is that God had made promises to them through Abraham .

God keeps His promises... which is a very good thing to know! .

Listening to some of the prophets... especially Ezekiel of late...

My goodness. It's a wonder He did not just flood the world again!

But, He had promised not to...

 

[rogerg]

Really, you use Verses that say Natural Man cannot know God?

19 because what can be known about God is plain to them—for God has shown it to them.
20 His invisible attributes—His eternal power and His divine nature—have been clearly seen ever since the creation of the world, being understood through the things that have been made. So people are without excuse—
21 for even though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God

Basically: what can be known about God is plain to them—for God has shown it to them, So people are without excuse—even though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God

Pretty obvious Natural man DOES KNOW GOD because GOD has : what can be known about God is plain to them—for God has shown it to them

which means, So people are without excuse—even though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God

Yeah, I used verses that say natural man cannot know God and I figured you'd get around to the verses you posted. They are explained by the fact that they (and all of the unsaved), have not been given spiritual discernment by God to be able to comprehend things spiritual. They may have some superficial intellectual understanding but that does not give anyone true knowledge of Jesus.
Look at the verse again. Do you see the "because they are spiritually discerned" part? Because they can only be discerned spiritually, they cannot be comprehended by the unsaved. Why? Because they have not been born-again, not been given a new mind and spirit, nor have they taught of God.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

No, I did not make your point and that you think so is scary. No, man is NOT choosing there. The "him that cometh to me" are only those the Father gave to Christ and no one else.
If God hasn't specifically given someone to Christ, then they cannot/will not come to Christ and therefore not seek God.
How could you possibly miss that? Did you look only at the last part of the verse and not the first part? It's not that difficult to understand if you read the whole thing. How is it possible that you can't understand it?

Here look at it again.

Can you see the "giveth me", the "shall come to me", and the "that cometh to me"? They are all linked to each other and complete each other.

[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Read these verses too. They clearly tell us that natural (unsaved) man will NOT seek God.

[Rom 3:11-12 KJV] 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

You forget Bro, as a Southern Baptist, I was not only hammered to death with these Scriptures, but ALSO taught, how to deflect. And this is where the Pastor will bluntly tell you, this is where this Denomination will use this so YOU DEFLECT.

Now, if I was presenting Facts, like You believe that you are, why do I also need to know when to DEFLECT?
If Calvin's Doctrines are so Rock Solid, why does the Pastor teach us how to DEFLECT?


I am tryna to take it easy on you here, because, I know, you are now basically one step above a Puppet, meaning, you are now able to Act the same as the Puppet who Taught You.

Romans 3 is saying what I just posted from Romans 1.

I am just watching you literally talk in circles.

 

[Cameron143]

The only "thing" about them is that God had made promises to them through Abraham .

God keeps His promises... which is a very good thing to know! .

Listening to some of the prophets... especially Ezekiel of late...

My goodness. It's a wonder He did not just flood the world again!

But, He had promised not to...

Amen.

 

[rogerg]

I am tryna to take it easy on you here, because, I know, you are now basically one step above a Puppet, meaning, you are now able to Act the same as the Puppet who Taught You.

You're joking, right? You've got to be, so I'll take it that way.

Romans 3 is saying what I just posted from Romans 1.

And both are saying that for someone to have spiritual discernment, they must first become born-again. Natural unsaved man does not have it.

I am just watching you literally talk in circles.

Yeah - typical reply for someone who has run out ways to retreat and has been silenced by their own error and folly. I've seen it all before.