The Tribulation: Part I - Refinement, Not Removal

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2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:
Okay. We're not especially equipped than any other generation, but that God Himself can fully empower us as much as needed to withstand the worst persecution of all time. But we MUST stick close to God to endure. No one else is, or is more powerful.


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Are you thinking that worse things will happen to Christians than have been done to them before? The reason I ask is that there are two ways I've seen that people tend to think about the Great Tribulation.

One is that the tortures and persecutions will be more horrific than what's been done before. Great Tribulation, as in, really really bad.
The other is that the tortures and persecutions will be more prevalent than ever before. Considering that Christians are today being burned alive, flayed alive, and all other manner of horrific treatment, my thinking is that Jesus meant "more prevalent".

I think every generation of Christians is empowered by God to withstand whatever is happening, and that we are all being refined by our afflictions, no matter what generation.

So there is nothing unique about the Great Tribulation in terms of what horrors people suffer, aside from the fact that it will be more widespread than any other time.

I can so no Biblical reason that requires the last generation of Christians to endure the Great Tribulation in any way other than that we are to endure whatever tribulations (afflicitions) come into our lives.

And the fact is that if you place current day Christians in the midst of the great tribulation, to be gathered to Jesus when He comes (post trib) you open up a host of conflicts and contradictions in the Scriptures.

Much love!
 
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And what about America---Israel's best friend in this world!

America will be worthless after the Rapture. America has the highest number of Christians than any nation.

How else would a Man show up and replace America and become the antichrist
 
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2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:
That's how confident I am that we will all go through the GT. You won't have a choice.
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I've never seen mocking others as a sign of confidence. Unless you mean a fleshy kind of confidence. Faith that shows itself through love for others empowered by the Holy Spirit, does that make a man a mocker?

Much love!
 
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tablet123 said:
If the saints are not on earth the world could not go against the truth for there is no truth there.
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According to my reading of the Revelation, God will not be without His witness on the earth after the removal of the Church. He will annoint two witnesses, and will seal 144,000 Jewish men. Later He will send angels to fly through the skys proclaiming His truth.

Much love!
 
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vassal said:
did you forget what James said about faith alone?
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Yes . . . faith if it doesn't have works isn't saving faith. Of course those works that arise from faith do not join faith in saving us, the works demonstrate that our faith is real.

It's like, you say your house is fully consumed in fire, yet you sit there on your couch not moving. Either you have a deathwish, or you don't really believe your house in on fire.

If you really believe, you will do what arises from your believing.

Much love!
 
Gideon300 said:
The true church is the repository of the Holy Spirit. The lawless one is restrained for now. When the church is raptured, the Holy Spirit will no longer be here in the same way that He is in the Church. There will be no intercession for the lost, no warring against the forces of darkness and so Satan will have free reign.
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Romans 8:28 KJV
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

2 Thessalonians 2:5-8 LITV
5) Do you not remember that I told you these things, I yet being with you?
6) And now you know the thing holding back, for him to be revealed in his time.
7) For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it comes out of the midst.
8) And then the Lawless One will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume by the spirit of His mouth, and will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence.

All things are working for our good. Anything that cannot be worked for our good is restrained. When we are removed from the world in the rapture, that restraint will no longer be required.

Given that the "restrainer" is both "it" and "he", that is, both neuter gender and masculine gender, as far as I've been able to find in the Bible, the only one who is called with both gender forms is the Holy Spirit.

Much love!
 
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markss said:
Romans 8:28 KJV
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

2 Thessalonians 2:5-8 LITV
5) Do you not remember that I told you these things, I yet being with you?
6) And now you know the thing holding back, for him to be revealed in his time.
7) For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it comes out of the midst.
8) And then the Lawless One will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume by the spirit of His mouth, and will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence.

All things are working for our good. Anything that cannot be worked for our good is restrained. When we are removed from the world in the rapture, that restraint will no longer be required.

Given that the "restrainer" is both "it" and "he", that is, both neuter gender and masculine gender, as far as I've been able to find in the Bible, the only one who is called with both gender forms is the Holy Spirit.

Much love!
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IMO the restrainer has to be the church, for it says only then can Lawless One be revealed
 
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2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:
I don't understand why you all would allow yourselves to be deceived. Many of you won't make it because it is only endurance in Christ you will not fall away.
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I just go by what the Bible says. I know God's way, whatever it is, is best. So I don't have some personal stake in this debate. But the Bible is very clear in what it says. Today's Christians will not be included in either of the two gatherings when Jesus comes. That thinking introduces irreconcilable conflicts in the Scriptures.

We can all say we don't understand why the other guy thinks what he does, we can all say the other guy is deceived, and does that give us progress in understanding? I don't think so.

But there are very specific reasons that are straight from the Bible why I believe the rapture is pre-trib. It just cannot be any other way. That's not deception. That's Bible study combined with faith. I believe what I read, and that's what I read.

Much love!
 
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markss said:
That's a very common view, and I don't disagree, though I think the actual power is in the Holy Spirit.

Much love!
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Well, Jesus sent the comforter for those who believe. Time will tell.

And when rapture happens many will understand they were wrong and come to the Lord
 
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Psalm1 said:
Our personal walk is flawed. But getting into perfection is what is supposed to happen.
IOW according to the bible, I can walk in obedience and avoid much correction, trials and scougeings.

You are confusing cleansing, and ommitting what actually heaven demands.
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On this note, there is a passage that tells us what to do to be purified here in this life.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

When we have no doubt that when Jesus appears, we shall become like Him, this is attributed as the cause that we purify ourselves.

Knowing as a fact that regardless of anything, when we see Him, we will be like Him, causes us to be in that process now.

Holding a certain belief causes us to act a certain way. Faith / Works in action.

Much love!
 
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Omegatime said:
And what about America---Israel's best friend in this world!

America will be worthless after the Rapture. America has the highest number of Christians than any nation.

How else would a Man show up and replace America and become the antichrist
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The end comes as a sudden destruction . . . I've considered that there will be a worldwide earthquake to begin the 70th week, toppling governments and cities and economies, worldwide disaster that opens the door for the beast.

Much love!
 
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Omegatime said:
2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Little humor for you:

Your desire to go thru the Tribulation may turn you into a pillar of salt
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We are to be seasoned with salt, savory people, preserved in the Lord, in covenant with God.

Much love!
 
markss said:
Are you thinking that worse things will happen to Christians than have been done to them before? The reason I ask is that there are two ways I've seen that people tend to think about the Great Tribulation.
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if Jesus said the GT will be the worst ever, then I believe Him.

Why woulg He lie about that?

If you don't want to believe Jesus about that, you have to work out that unbelief with Him. I can't do it for you,

You should be asking your questions to Jesus since He's going to let you go through them.


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Omegatime said:
And what about America---Israel's best friend in this world!

America will be worthless after the Rapture. America has the highest number of Christians than any nation.

How else would a Man show up and replace America and become the antichrist
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Aneriva will be wothless because the ac will kill most of the Christians in that country, not because of rapture,


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2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:
If you don't want to believe Jesus about that,
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Why would you accuse me of Intellectual Dishonesty? Perhaps the same reason you mock others? Are you convinced of your view but without sufficient understanding to articulate it well, and so you defer to negative comments to others?

If you make me look bad, you can think of your view as "OK"? That's how it works a lot of the time. The one without a cogent argument reverts to fallacies.

To answer your point I've already affirmed the great tribulation the greatest of all time, there is no grounds for your accusation.

I don't see much fruitfulness to you and I continuing this exchange, it seems to give you opportunity for that which is not good.

Much love!
 
markss said:
I've never seen mocking others as a sign of confidence. Unless you mean a fleshy kind of confidence. Faith that shows itself through love for others empowered by the Holy Spirit, does that make a man a mocker?

Much love!
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If you want to read my words that way it skows what is in YOUR heart.

Fortunately, God knows me better abd it's His view that matters most. I'm confident in what Jesus said will happen.


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