The Tribulation: Part I - Refinement, Not Removal

[Inquisitor]

My study has shown me America is the first to be taken out.

Where in the N.T does it say the US will be the first to be taken out?

 

[Omegatime]

I believe book of Revelation follows an orderly pattern.

First seals--about a month each
2nd--Trumpets--about 5 months each
3rd vials--about 5.5 months each

Under the altar----Paradise

Tribulation saints

 

[memberofthebride]

Not sure how you read the scripture but I will print the 5th Seal and you explain how you, derive
the great tribulation from that passage.

Revelation 6:9-11
When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain
because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried
out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging
our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they
were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their
brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

Now show me.

Revelation 6

First Seal: white horse is Satan’s church out to conquer the world

Second Seal: as Christ said in Matthew 24, "wars and rumors of wars" which we have now

Third Seal: the begin of food shortages and inflation, which we are seeing now

Fourth Seal: 25% of earth’s population is put to death by the sword, hunger and with beast.

2 billion dies, this is the 4th seal, “the beginning of Sorrows” –Matthew 24 the first 4 Seals

Fifth Seal: the “fellow servants” are to be killed.

Matthew 24, after the abomination of desolation which begins the 5th seal, 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:

Sixth Seal: cut short the tribulation preventing the death of all mankind

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The 6th seal cut short the 5 Seal by the heavenly signs.

The 5th – 7th Seal is 3 ½ years, thus the 6th Seal cut short the Tribulation on its last day as no time is removed from the 1260 days.

End of 2 ½ years

Seventh Seal: The DAY of the LORD is one year in length, over which the 7 Trumpet plagues occur.

At the end of 3 ½ (1260 days) years Christ returns.

 

[memberofthebride]

Where in the N.T does it say the US will be the first to be taken out?

it doesn't, but when you read other prophecy, there is the King of the north, the King of the South and those in the East, no mention of any power in the west.

 

[John146]

Another thread of failing to rightly divide the word of truth and separating the Church from the nation of Israel.

 

[Gideon300]

If the saints are not on earth the world could not go against the truth for there is no truth there.

If the saints are not on earth the beast would not have to blaspheme against God which he is telling the world that there is no God and Christianity is false.

God will not give up on the world until they give up on Him so the saints will remain on earth for the 7 years.

The wrath of God is not until the 7 years is over.

Which salvation is available until they take the mark of the beast.

The 7 years will separate the true saints from the hypocrites.

 

[memberofthebride]

Another thread of failing to rightly divide the word of truth and separating the Church from the nation of Israel.

can you explain

 

[Gideon300]

If the saints are not on earth the world could not go against the truth for there is no truth there.

If the saints are not on earth the beast would not have to blaspheme against God which he is telling the world that there is no God and Christianity is false.

God will not give up on the world until they give up on Him so the saints will remain on earth for the 7 years.

You could not be more wrong. There are vast numbers of people who have heard the truth but chosen to reject it. There are people who have gone to church most of their lives, but only as a religion. There are billions of Bibles, and a lot are gathering dust.

When the rapture happens, it will not be secret. Believers will be taken up while the "make-believers" watch in horror. That's before God sends out the 144,000 and the two witnesses. The two witnesses will have powers greater than anyone before them except Lord Jesus.

Those who listen to them and are saved will suffer terribly. Those who keep rejecting the truth will suffer even more.

 

[Gideon300]

That's a very common view, and I don't disagree, though I think the actual power is in the Holy Spirit.

Much love!

Yes. And the church is where the Holy Spirit dwells. Take away the church, and you take away the Holy Spirit.

 

[Gideon300]

Since God is giving the world 7 years to have their way and go against the truth the saints will remain on earth for they represent the truth.
If the saints are not on earth the world could not go against the truth for there is no truth there.
The 7 years will separate the true saints from the hypocrites.[/QUOTE]

You could not be more wrong. There are vast numbers of people who have heard the truth but chosen to reject it. There are people who have gone to church most of their lives, but only as a religion. There are billions of Bibles, and a lot are gathering dust.

When the rapture happens, it will not be secret. Believers will be taken up while the "make-believers" watch in horror. That's before God sends out the 144,000 and the two witnesses. The two witnesses will have powers greater than anyone before them except Lord Jesus.

Those who listen to them and are saved will suffer terribly. Those who keep rejecting the truth will suffer even more.

 

[BBerean]

Jesus liken the man that was a hearer of the word and the doer of the word . The hearer only fell , the doer was on the solid rock and his house fell not . Correction and repentance can heal us and make us better doers . In this world we will have tribulations Jesus said but he over came for us . We need to patiently trust in him . Easier said than done !

 

[Inquisitor]

Romans 8:28 KJV
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

2 Thessalonians 2:5-8 LITV
5) Do you not remember that I told you these things, I yet being with you?
6) And now you know the thing holding back, for him to be revealed in his time.
7) For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it comes out of the midst.
8) And then the Lawless One will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume by the spirit of His mouth, and will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence.

All things are working for our good. Anything that cannot be worked for our good is restrained. When we are removed from the world in the rapture, that restraint will no longer be required.

Given that the "restrainer" is both "it" and "he", that is, both neuter gender and masculine gender, as far as I've been able to find in the Bible, the only one who is called with both gender forms is the Holy Spirit.

Much love!

I cannot swing in any direction regarding the restrainer because we don't know.

Do you think the lawless one is revealed when Jesus returns?

8) And then the Lawless One will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume by the spirit of His mouth,
and will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence.

If the lawless one is only revealed when Jesus returns does that mean, we don't know who he is until
Jesus returns?

 

[Inquisitor]

Revelation 6

First Seal: white horse is Satan’s church out to conquer the world

Second Seal: as Christ said in Matthew 24, "wars and rumors of wars" which we have now

Third Seal: the begin of food shortages and inflation, which we are seeing now

Fourth Seal: 25% of earth’s population is put to death by the sword, hunger and with beast.

2 billion dies, this is the 4th seal, “the beginning of Sorrows” –Matthew 24 the first 4 Seals

Fifth Seal: the “fellow servants” are to be killed.

Matthew 24, after the abomination of desolation which begins the 5th seal, 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:

Sixth Seal: cut short the tribulation preventing the death of all mankind

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The 6th seal cut short the 5 Seal by the heavenly signs.

The 5th – 7th Seal is 3 ½ years, thus the 6th Seal cut short the Tribulation on its last day as no time is removed from the 1260 days.

End of 2 ½ years

Seventh Seal: The DAY of the LORD is one year in length, over which the 7 Trumpet plagues occur.

At the end of 3 ½ (1260 days) years Christ returns.

The four horseman of the apocalypse are mentioned in Zechariah 6.

They are also mentioned in Revelation 6.

Are you aware of this?

Zechariah 6:4-5
Then I spoke and said to the angel who was speaking with me, “What are these, my lord?”
The angel replied to me, These are the four spirits of heaven, going forth after standing
before the Lord of all the earth.

Your saying that the first horse is Satan's church?

 

[memberofthebride]

The four horseman of the apocalypse are mentioned in Zechariah 6.

They are also mentioned in Revelation 6.

Are you aware of this?

Zechariah 6:4-5
Then I spoke and said to the angel who was speaking with me, “What are these, my lord?”
The angel replied to me, These are the four spirits of heaven, going forth after standing
before the Lord of all the earth.

Your saying that the first horse is Satan's church?

yes, Christ's weapon is a sword and is not out to conquer, He converts

the four are mentioned in a few places

it is a church that will become huge and powerful and has daughters that broke away from her and is out to bring the world into obedience and will join the Beast as head of a world religion.

 

[vassal]

A double Sabbath year is one in which Passover (1/14) is on Wednesday, mid-week, Feast of Trumpets (7/1), the first day of Feast of Tabernacles (7/15) and the Last Great Day, (The 8th day) (7/22):
all three are observed on 7th Day Sabbaths, Thus: Double Sabbaths, High Sabbath & 7th Day Sabbath.

these dbl Sabbaths years are very special events.
like the birth of Christ, 7/15/ 4 BC -- Dbl Sabbath year

the Year He died, Christ was slain mid week on a Wednesday 1/14/31 AD. a double Sabbath Year.

from 7/15/4 BC to 1/14/31 AD is exactly 33 1/2 years to the day.

God's calendar is more important than people realize.

I keep all 7 Holy Feasts and Passover on the night of 1/14, God's calendar

I know it is important but never understood it, but ill study it.

Thank you.

 

[memberofthebride]

Not sure how you read the scripture but I will print the 5th Seal and you explain how you, derive
the great tribulation from that passage.

Revelation 6:9-11
When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain
because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried
out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging
our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they
were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their
brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

Now show me.

I thought I posted a reply but I can not fine it

 

[Psalm1]

First, the promise in Revelation:
“Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world” (Revelation 3:10, ASV).
This was spoken to a real church, in a real city. The promise is personal and conditional: “because you kept… I will keep.” It does not explain how He keeps. The Greek phrase can mean to guard, to preserve through, not only to remove from. In John 17:15 Jesus prayed, “I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one.” The same thought appears there. Kept, but not taken out.
Now the verse about escape:
“But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man” (Luke 21:36, ASV).
In that same chapter Jesus describes distress, persecution, betrayal, and signs in the heavens. He does not describe a secret removal. He calls for watchfulness and prayer so that one may stand before Him. To escape can mean to survive faithfully and not fall away. In Luke 21:19 He says, “In your patience ye shall win your souls.” Escape is linked with endurance.
You mention Noah and Lot.
Jesus said, “And as it came to pass in the days of Noah… so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man” (Luke 17:26). And again about Lot (Luke 17:28–30). But notice carefully: in both stories, the righteous were present until the very day judgment fell. Noah was on the earth until the flood came. Lot was in Sodom until the morning fire fell. The separation happened at the moment of judgment, not years before.
Jesus then says, “In that night there shall be two men on one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left”(Luke 17:34). When they ask, “Where?” He answers, “Where the body is, thither will the eagles also be gathered together” (Luke 17:37). That is a picture of judgment, not rescue.
Now the ten virgins.
In Matthew 25:1–13, all ten were waiting. All ten slept. The difference was oil. The oil shows readiness, the Spirit, a living faith. But notice this: the bridegroom came once. There is no earlier coming for five and later coming for the rest. When He came, the ready entered. The door was shut.
The parable teaches readiness, not a timeline of removal before tribulation.
You say you will never use trials as a basis for purity, because we are purified by the blood.
It is true that Jesus said, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins”(Matthew 26:28, ASV). We are cleansed by His blood.
But the same Jesus said, “Every branch in me that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit” (John 15:2, ASV). Cleansing continues in the life of the believer.
Peter writes, “that the proof of your faith… being proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:7, ASV).
The blood saves. Trials refine. These are not enemies.
Now about endurance.
Jesus said plainly, “He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved” (Matthew 24:13, ASV).
He did not say, “He that escapes seven years earlier.” He spoke those words in the same discourse where He described great tribulation (Matthew 24:21).
And in Matthew 24:29–31 He says, “But immediately after the tribulation of those days… they shall see the Son of man coming… and he shall send forth his angels… and they shall gather together his elect.”
The gathering is placed after the tribulation in His own words.
So we must hold all His sayings together.
Yes, there are promises of being kept. Yes, there is prayer for escape. Yes, Noah and Lot were delivered. Yes, we are cleansed by covenant blood.
But Jesus consistently prepares His disciples for suffering, calls them to endure, and places the visible gathering of the elect after tribulation.
Our hope is not in avoiding hardship. Our hope is in standing faithful and being found ready when He appears.
The oil matters. The blood matters. Obedience matters. Endurance matters.
And above all, His words must guide our understanding.

1) if you look up that word "taken" in the greek, it is "taken to a good place".
2) Jesus used 50 % taken in 2 instances back to back.(Mat 24 and 25)
3) your model of , "taken to judgement", is a false assumption, because in both of the half taken analogies it is 50% of a group, not the entire world's population.
In fact your model is impossible, because in no way is mankind ever going to be 50% wicked vs righteous.
4) the setting in which they are taken is OPPOSITE your setting.
Note the setting is normal life, everyday life, commerce, planning for the future, marriage.
In your model, postribs envision survival, and escaping to caves, and " enduring", and barely surviving catastrophic conditions, with million or billions of dead believers.

Way way off, and not biblical at all.

All mature saints endure trials and demonic attacks.
Postribbers have no special revelation there.

But Jesus escaped herod via removal, as did lot and Noah.
To take verses off the table via minimizing them is not the high ground.

Note that you are taking the seven letters to the seven churches as a abstract history lesson, instead of what it is. It is a future prophecy and CRITICAL AND APPLICABLE to the believer today.

Your minimizing reminds me of the "hyper Pauline's", that cast down the entire Bible except the pauline letters.

The answer to that "bible cleansing" error is: "please do not read romans or Hebrews because they are written to romans and Hebrew citizens."

 

[Psalm1]

in Matthew 24:29–31 He says, “But immediately after the tribulation of those days… they shall see the Son of man coming… and he shall send forth his angels… and they shall gather together his elect. .

Keep reading for CONTEXT.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What it says, if you don't omit verses, is , "AFTER the trib, Jesus sends angels, (WITHOUT GOING HIMSELF), to gather elect in heaven.( not earth)
That is what it says.

It fits pretrib rapture like a glove.
The saints in heaven, gathered by angels in heaven, to the white horses in heaven.
Yes we have always believed the saints are in heaven during the trib.... miles above the earth as was Noah during the flood miles above the earth.....and of course , in the future ,gathered while still in heaven to the white horses.

Postribbs are constantly quoting that pretrib rapture verse.

 

[Psalm1]

It is true that God corrects His children now. Jesus said, “As many as I love, I reprove and chasten” (Revelation 3:19, ASV). Trials can purify faith. Peter wrote, “that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:7, ASV). So yes, believers go through trials, and these can refine us.
But the Scriptures do not say there is no judgment after death.
Jesus Himself said, “And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life” (Matthew 25:46, ASV). He also said, “Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment” (John 5:28–29, ASV).
There is a coming judgment. It is not only in this life.
Again Jesus said, “And I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment” (Matthew 12:36, ASV). That is future. Not only now.
And the apostle John saw this in a vision: “And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened… and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works” (Revelation 20:12, ASV).
So we must hold both truths. There is correction now. And there is judgment later.
Now concerning covenant and cleansing through blood.
Jesus said at the supper, “for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins”(Matthew 26:28, ASV). Yes, we are cleansed through His blood.
But Jesus also said, “If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments” (John 14:15, ASV).
Covenant is not a covering for disobedience. Covenant writes the law on the heart. As it is written, “And I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it” (Jeremiah 31:33, ASV).
So cleansing does not remove obedience. It produces obedience.
You say our walk is flawed. That is true. But Jesus did not lower the standard. He said, “Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:48, ASV). He calls us higher, not lower.
Can a man walk in obedience and avoid much correction? Yes. Proverbs says, “The way of transgressors is hard”(Proverbs 13:15, ASV). Disobedience brings pain. Obedience brings peace.
But even the obedient suffer trials, not always for correction, but for faith. Job suffered, yet God said he was upright. Jesus said, “In the world ye have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world” (John 16:33, ASV). He did not say only the disobedient have trouble.
So we must not say all trials come from disobedience. Some come because we follow Him.
And about being clean through covenant — Jesus also warned, “Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away” (John 15:2, ASV). And again, “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch” (John 15:6, ASV).
Covenant is living. It must be kept.
Therefore, we are corrected now. We will stand before Him later. We are cleansed by His blood. And we are called to walk in obedience. Trials may purify us. Some are correction. Some are testing. But none of this removes the clear words of Jesus that there is a coming day when every man will answer before God.

Again, every believer goes through trials and tribulation.
Postribs are more centered on trials and tribulation, than on Jesus.

Look at your doctrine, you can not make a point in eschatology without maximizing "tribulation", which is totally futile since the AC kills all refusing the mark.

Postrib doctrine omits tons of verses.

 

[Psalm1]

First, the promise in Revelation:
“Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world” (Revelation 3:10, ASV).
This was spoken to a real church, in a real city. The promise is personal and conditional: “because you kept… I will keep.” It does not explain how He keeps. The Greek phrase can mean to guard, to preserve through, not only to remove from. In John 17:15 Jesus prayed, “I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one.” The same thought appears there. Kept, but not taken out.
Now the verse about escape:
“But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man” (Luke 21:36, ASV).
In that same chapter Jesus describes distress, persecution, betrayal, and signs in the heavens. He does not describe a secret removal. He calls for watchfulness and prayer so that one may stand before Him. To escape can mean to survive faithfully and not fall away. In Luke 21:19 He says, “In your patience ye shall win your souls.” Escape is linked with endurance.
You mention Noah and Lot.
Jesus said, “And as it came to pass in the days of Noah… so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man” (Luke 17:26). And again about Lot (Luke 17:28–30). But notice carefully: in both stories, the righteous were present until the very day judgment fell. Noah was on the earth until the flood came. Lot was in Sodom until the morning fire fell. The separation happened at the moment of judgment, not years before.
Jesus then says, “In that night there shall be two men on one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left”(Luke 17:34). When they ask, “Where?” He answers, “Where the body is, thither will the eagles also be gathered together” (Luke 17:37). That is a picture of judgment, not rescue.
Now the ten virgins.
In Matthew 25:1–13, all ten were waiting. All ten slept. The difference was oil. The oil shows readiness, the Spirit, a living faith. But notice this: the bridegroom came once. There is no earlier coming for five and later coming for the rest. When He came, the ready entered. The door was shut.
The parable teaches readiness, not a timeline of removal before tribulation.
You say you will never use trials as a basis for purity, because we are purified by the blood.
It is true that Jesus said, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins”(Matthew 26:28, ASV). We are cleansed by His blood.
But the same Jesus said, “Every branch in me that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit” (John 15:2, ASV). Cleansing continues in the life of the believer.
Peter writes, “that the proof of your faith… being proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:7, ASV).
The blood saves. Trials refine. These are not enemies.
Now about endurance.
Jesus said plainly, “He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved” (Matthew 24:13, ASV).
He did not say, “He that escapes seven years earlier.” He spoke those words in the same discourse where He described great tribulation (Matthew 24:21).
And in Matthew 24:29–31 He says, “But immediately after the tribulation of those days… they shall see the Son of man coming… and he shall send forth his angels… and they shall gather together his elect.”
The gathering is placed after the tribulation in His own words.
So we must hold all His sayings together.
Yes, there are promises of being kept. Yes, there is prayer for escape. Yes, Noah and Lot were delivered. Yes, we are cleansed by covenant blood.
But Jesus consistently prepares His disciples for suffering, calls them to endure, and places the visible gathering of the elect after tribulation.
Our hope is not in avoiding hardship. Our hope is in standing faithful and being found ready when He appears.
The oil matters. The blood matters. Obedience matters. Endurance matters.
And above all, His words must guide our understanding.

QUOTE
"In Matthew 25:1–13, all ten were waiting. All ten slept. The difference was oil. The oil shows readiness, the Spirit, a living faith. But notice this: the bridegroom came once. There is no earlier coming for five and later coming for the rest. When He came, the ready entered. The door was shut.
The parable teaches readiness, not a timeline of removal before tribulation."

Yes all 10 believers were waiting
Yes oil was the difference
Yes Jesus came once...not to the brides house.( earth)
But you skewed the part of the second event where the foolish Christians wanted inclusion.

I m Evers said it teaches Jesus claiming in the parable He will not come postrib.

The postribber dilemma is
1) the SETTING is pretrib.
2) half believers left behind
3) the wise believers go INTO THE MARRIAGE CHAMBER.
4) the AUTHENTICATION of 50% taken in mat 24,
5) a 2 stage gathering with a 3rd stage in Rev 14.
6) there is no possible "one coming".


BTW...if "one coming" is debunked, the entire postrib rapture doctrine is debunked.

That is a fragile shaky position to gamble with.