The Tribulation: Part I - Refinement, Not Removal

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I'm asking, why the last generation of Christians, but not the previous generations? If we say this is what is required to rule with Christ (ala @Vassel), we're saying that only this generation will rule with Christ. Not Paul. Not Stephen. Not Polycarp. And so on. That doesn't sound right to me.

Much love!


Read my posts over. I'm not concerned about all past Christians brcause they are already dead. If they get to reign with us, great, but WE haven't passed the crucible yet.

My posts are concerned for our generation who has yet to face the worst persecution of all time. And I'm trying to understand why us? How is God going to help us, etc.

Meanwhile, you're thinking you'll escape, just like so many others do. This is why the great apostasy is already comi6ng true. Most of you won't make it.


🕊
 
Meanwhile, you're thinking you'll escape, just like so many others do.
You are making an assumption and you are not correct about it.

I bring up past Christians because it shows a huge flaw in this reasoning.

No matter, I'm not interested in convincing you of anything.

The fact is . . . if they've "passed the crucible" without the 'great tribulation', then there is no reason that others might as well. You see, this reasoning is flawed. That doesn't mean post trib isn't true, it just means that reason doesn't hold up.

Much love!
 
I'm asking, why the last generation of Christians, but not the previous generations? If we say this is what is required to rule with Christ (ala @Vassel), we're saying that only this generation will rule with Christ. Not Paul. Not Stephen. Not Polycarp. And so on. That doesn't sound right to me.

Much love!

Probably does not sound right, because it is not right.
Sometimes it is that simple.
 
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You are making an assumption and you are not correct about it.

I bring up past Christians because it shows a huge flaw in this reasoning.

No matter, I'm not interested in convincing you of anything.

The fact is . . . if they've "passed the crucible" without the 'great tribulation', then there is no reason that others might as well. You see, this reasoning is flawed. That doesn't mean post trib isn't true, it just means that reason doesn't hold up.

Much love!

Sounds like 2ndCharm is not saved by faith alone


You'll both see....


🕊
 
The Tribulation: Part I: Refinement, Not Removal
Abstract
This study explores the theological purpose of tribulation as presented in the Bible—specifically, the prophetic writings, the teachings of Jesus, the Book of Revelation, and selected passages from Paul. The central argument advanced here is that tribulation serves not as divine abandonment or escape, but as a refining process through which faith, character, and covenant fidelity are purified and revealed. Across Scripture, tribulation emerges as an instrument of transformation rather than removal.

1. Introduction
The concept of the “Great Tribulation” has long been a subject of eschatological debate. Many interpretations emphasize deliverance from suffering, particularly through the notion of a pre-tribulational rapture. Yet, when the Hebrew prophets, the teachings of Jesus, the Revelation of John, and Paul are read together carefully, a consistent pattern emerges.
In these sources, tribulation is consistently depicted as a necessary refinement of the faithful rather than their escape from adversity. The people of God are not portrayed as removed from trial, but as purified through it. This understanding aligns with a broader biblical theology in which suffering functions as a divine crucible for authenticity and faithfulness.

2. Refinement in the Prophetic Tradition
2.1 Zechariah: The Remnant Through Fire

Zechariah 13:9 declares, “I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested.”
Here, tribulation is represented not as punitive destruction but as a process of purification. The “third part,” symbolizing the faithful remnant, endures divine testing that burns away impurity while preserving the essence of covenant loyalty.
In Hebrew prophetic thought, fire is primarily transformative rather than annihilative. It is the means by which God restores holiness among His people.
2.2 Daniel: Purification Before Deliverance
In Daniel 12:1–10, a “time of trouble” precedes final deliverance. The righteous are described as those who are purified, made white, and refined. This imagery depicts tribulation as an eschatological furnace in which moral integrity and faith are distinguished from rebellion and corruption.
The sequence is instructive: refinement precedes deliverance, implying that salvation itself arises from faithfulness under pressure, not immunity from it.

3. Jesus’ Teaching: Endurance as Faithfulness
In the Synoptic Gospels, particularly the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24), Jesus speaks plainly about suffering and persecution that will befall His followers. He does not promise their removal from tribulation but insists upon their endurance within it:
“Then they will hand you over to be persecuted… but the one who endures to the end will be saved” (Matthew 24:9–13).
Endurance signifies steadfast perseverance. Salvation, therefore, is not the avoidance of tribulation but the demonstration of fidelity in its midst.
Similarly, in John 16:33, Jesus assures His disciples, “In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.” His victory does not eliminate the experience of suffering but grants meaning and hope within it.
The agricultural metaphor of pruning in John 15:2 reinforces this truth: even fruitful branches are cut back so that they might yield more. Divine pruning parallels the refining fire—both serve to deepen fruitfulness and spiritual maturity.

4. Paul: Tribulation as Producing Endurance
When Paul speaks directly about tribulation, his language aligns with this pattern of refinement rather than removal.
In Romans 5:3–4, he writes:
“And not only so, but we also rejoice in our tribulations: knowing that tribulation worketh stedfastness; and stedfastness, approvedness; and approvedness, hope.”
Here tribulation is not presented as something believers escape, but as something that produces steadfastness and proven character. The movement is from suffering to endurance to tested faith. This is refinement language.
Likewise, in 2 Thessalonians 1:4–5, Paul commends believers:
“So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions which ye endure; which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God; to the end that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer.”
Their endurance under persecution is described as evidence of God’s righteous judgment and as preparation for the kingdom. Suffering is not bypassed; it is endured. Worthiness is demonstrated through faithfulness in affliction.
Thus, in these passages, Paul supports the same theological trajectory seen in the prophets and in Jesus.

5. Revelation: Purity Through Perseverance
The Book of Revelation continues and completes this pattern. Believers are not depicted as absent during the world’s trials but as sealed and sustained through them. The vision of the multitude in Revelation 7:14 identifies them as those who “have come out of the great tribulation,” having “washed their robes… in the blood of the Lamb.”
Their purity is the result of endurance and faith under suffering. The saints are refined by faithfulness amid persecution, not by exemption from it. Likewise, in Revelation 3:18, Christ counsels the church to acquire “gold refined by fire,” emphasizing the necessity of purification before participation in divine glory.
Thus, Revelation’s theology of tribulation mirrors the prophets, Jesus, and Paul: God’s people are preserved through testing and perfected by it.

6. The Biblical Pattern of Refinement
Throughout Scripture, the same pattern appears again and again.
In Noah’s Flood there was global judgment, yet God preserved a remnant and brought renewal through it.
In Israel’s wilderness there was hardship and testing, yet through that suffering God formed their covenant identity.
In the Babylonian exile there was national suffering, yet it led to repentance and restoration.
In the end-time tribulation there is a global crisis, yet its purpose is the revelation and perfection of true faith.
Across these episodes, the faithful are preserved within crisis, not spared from it. God’s justice and mercy operate simultaneously: judgment exposes evil, while suffering refines love and loyalty.

7. Conclusion
In the witness of the prophets, the Gospels, Paul’s teachings on endurance, and Revelation, tribulation is never portrayed as a means of removing God’s people from the world. Instead, it is the means by which they are transformed within it.
The fire of tribulation purifies; it distinguishes the genuine from the false, the steadfast from the superficial. The refining process culminates not in despair but in redemption — the emergence of a people made radiant through endurance.
Hence, the theology of tribulation reveals this central biblical truth:
God’s purpose in tribulation is not escape, but refinement; not destruction, but purification; not abandonment, but preparation for glory.

Blessings.
So the only way Christians can mature is through the great tribulation? Every real believer has tribulation in their lives. It's the doorway to the kingdom of God. You have laid out your argument very well, but you have come to the wrong conclusion. If normal tribulation is effective, why would God subject believers to the seven worst years in human history?

The true church is the repository of the Holy Spirit. The lawless one is restrained for now. When the church is raptured, the Holy Spirit will no longer be here in the same way that He is in the Church. There will be no intercession for the lost, no warring against the forces of darkness and so Satan will have free reign.

There will be many who are Christians in name only. They will have an opportunity to choose to get real with God. The two witnesses will preach with power all over the earth. Many will be saved in that time. They will not escape the great tribulation. Many will perish. So yes, they will be removed from the world.

The Great Tribulation is primarily judgement on Israel. The third temple, which is NOT the temple in Ezekiel's vision, will be rebuilt. The Antichrist will reveal his true nature as he demands to be worshiped as God. The remnant of the Jews will receive Lord Jesus as their Messiah, thus fulfilling the OT prophecies concerning the last days and Israel.
 
Are you pre-tribbers going to still post here when the antchrist shows up and you're all still here in the great tribulation?


🕊
 
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The Christians who are persecuted and remain faithful to Jesus through the GT will reign with Jesus during the millennial age. Maybe the GT is Jesus' training ground for them so that they'll be good leaders who are loyal to Him? Just a guess.

Guess again. You really imagine that John, Paul, Peter and the founding apostles won't be leaders? How about Titus, Timothy and Barnabus? There are believers right now enduring terrible persecution in Iran, North Korea, Pakistan, Afghanistan and most Muslim majority nations.

Lord Jesus said that in this world we have tribulation. God works in every believer's life to bring us to maturity. Some are more open to correction and change than others. We mature spiritually by what we lose, not by what we gain. Those who cling to self miss out on God's best for them. That's as true now as it has been for 2,000 years.
 
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Are you pre-tribbers going to still post here when the antchrist shows up and you're all still here in the great tribulation?

You mock. You can rest assured that there will be no Christian sites to post on. You will be doing your best to hide from the Antichrist. Be careful what you wish for. You might just get it. For me, I have enough tribulation for now. I'll pass on the GT.
 
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Guess again. You really imagine that John, Paul, Peter and the founding apostles won't be leaders? How about Titus, Timothy and Barnabus? There are believers right now enduring terrible persecution in Iran, North Korea, Pakistan, Afghanistan and most Muslim majority nations.

Lord Jesus said that in this world we have tribulation. God works in every believer's life to bring us to maturity. Some are more open to correction and change than others. We mature spiritually by what we lose, not by what we gain. Those who cling to self miss out on God's best for them. That's as true now as it has been for 2,000 years.


Save you breath. @markss asked about other generations, but I was only focused on us since our generation will go through GT.


🕊
 
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You mock. You can rest assured that there will be no Christian sites to post on. You will be doing your best to hide from the Antichrist. Be careful what you wish for. You might just get it. For me, I have enough tribulation for now. I'll pass on the GT.


That's how confident I am that we will all go through the GT. You won't have a choice.

I'm also not afraid of the antichrist. I already know I'll die. But Jesus has that covered. Death no longer has its sting.


🕊
 
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I'm wondering how you'll hold up in the GT when you don't even have any moral fortitude. 🤭


🕊

What is the new date this time around 2030?
I trust the words of Christ Jesus, .... "This generation" ... I trust Him because He would not lie to the audience that heard Him the first time.
 
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Read my posts over. I'm not concerned about all past Christians brcause they are already dead. If they get to reign with us, great, but WE haven't passed the crucible yet.

My posts are concerned for our generation who has yet to face the worst persecution of all time. And I'm trying to understand why us? How is God going to help us, etc.

Meanwhile, you're thinking you'll escape, just like so many others do. This is why the great apostasy is already comi6ng true. Most of you won't make it.

Why should this generation of Christians be forced to endure worse tribulation than any other? The answer is simple. We won't. Ask the believers in North Korea what persecution is like. Then tell me you are expecting much worse. Death is the easy part.
 
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Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in(salvation no longer available to the Gentiles when they take the mark of the beast).

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

70 weeks, 490 years, are determined upon Israel as a nation to make an end of sins and anoint the most holy who is Jesus.

There is 1 week to go, 7 years which is the time God causes all people who do not love the truth to follow the antichrist and brings Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After Whethat they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

When the nations come together to work for peace they will cause all Hebrews to go to Israel and they will not be left in the nations anymore.

Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression,

and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Since God is giving the world 7 years to have their way and go against the truth the saints will remain on earth for they represent the truth.

If the saints are not on earth the world could not go against the truth for there is no truth there.

If the saints are not on earth the beast would not have to blaspheme against God which he is telling the world that there is no God and Christianity is false.

God will not give up on the world until they give up on Him so the saints will remain on earth for the 7 years.

The wrath of God is not until the 7 years is over.

Which salvation is available until they take the mark of the beast.

And the beast has power to rule the world.

So the wrath would not be in the 7 years.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Which the saints will not be gathered unto Christ until the man of sin claims to be God.

They are given in to his hands for 3.5 years.

When he has scattered their power to affect the world and their ways all things are finished.

Which then comes the end when the resurrection happens and Jesus puts down the world.

Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The 7 years will separate the true saints from the hypocrites.
 
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Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in(salvation no longer available to the Gentiles when they take the mark of the beast).

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

70 weeks, 490 years, are determined upon Israel as a nation to make an end of sins and anoint the most holy who is Jesus.

There is 1 week to go, 7 years which is the time God causes all people who do not love the truth to follow the antichrist and brings Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After Whethat they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

When the nations come together to work for peace they will cause all Hebrews to go to Israel and they will not be left in the nations anymore.

Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression,

and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Since God is giving the world 7 years to have their way and go against the truth the saints will remain on earth for they represent the truth.

If the saints are not on earth the world could not go against the truth for there is no truth there.

If the saints are not on earth the beast would not have to blaspheme against God which he is telling the world that there is no God and Christianity is false.

God will not give up on the world until they give up on Him so the saints will remain on earth for the 7 years.

The wrath of God is not until the 7 years is over.

Which salvation is available until they take the mark of the beast.

And the beast has power to rule the world.

So the wrath would not be in the 7 years.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Which the saints will not be gathered unto Christ until the man of sin claims to be God.

They are given in to his hands for 3.5 years.

When he has scattered their power to affect the world and their ways all things are finished.

Which then comes the end when the resurrection happens and Jesus puts down the world.

Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The 7 years will separate the true saints from the hypocrites.
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@tablet123 How could you possibly say:

The wrath of God is not until the 7 years is over.

Is it not the Lord who opens the judgements upon those in the Tribulation. The Millenium is a time of rest and peace?
 
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