The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

[Cameron143]

Entering into life is not a magic moment where nothing more matters. Jesus spoke of a narrow gate and a hard way that leads unto life (Matthew 7:13–14, ASV). It is a path walked, not a word spoken once.

He said clearly, “If thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17). He also said, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me” (Matthew 16:24). That is a changed heart and a new direction.

Life is tied to perseverance. Jesus said, “He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved” (Matthew 24:13). And again, “If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples” (John 8:31), and “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life” meaning a continual sharing in Him (John 6:54).

So entering into life and being saved are not two different roads. Salvation is entering into the life of Christ, and that life is walked in faith, obedience, and endurance until the end.

The Bible also teaches that when one believes they are saved...have passed from death into life. So...salvation is spoken of as past, present, and future. That salvation is past means we have had life imparted to us and become a new creation. That it is present means that God is continuously changing us more and more into the image of His Son. That it is future means there will come a time when we put on immortality. None of this relies on anything we do. The covenant was accomplished at the cross, and the benefits are given to us over time. While I do believe obedience is important, we view it very differently. And that's why you wouldn't answer my questions. Works don't contribute anything to salvation; neither do they contribute to remaining in an estate of grace. Those issues were settled at the cross. It is finished. Jesus saying that those who endure to the end is not prescriptive to the individual. The statement is simply a declarative statement describing those who will be saved.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Yes, He did reduce it to one narrow idea as you choose to call it- even though that one idea is eternal life through God's grace - and it is Jesus Christ alone the Savior:

[Heb 7:15-19, 22, 25 KJV]
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God. ...
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. ...
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

So worshipping only God is a carnal commandment???

This is speaking of the laws in the sanctuary under the priesthood, animal sacrifices- fleshy ordinances. Not only using the name of the Lord in a holy manner.

 

[vassal]

The Bible also teaches that when one believes they are saved...have passed from death into life. So...salvation is spoken of as past, present, and future. That salvation is past means we have had life imparted to us and become a new creation. That it is present means that God is continuously changing us more and more into the image of His Son. That it is future means there will come a time when we put on immortality. None of this relies on anything we do. The covenant was accomplished at the cross, and the benefits are given to us over time. While I do believe obedience is important, we view it very differently. And that's why you wouldn't answer my questions. Works don't contribute anything to salvation; neither do they contribute to remaining in an estate of grace. Those issues were settled at the cross. It is finished. Jesus saying that those who endure to the end is not prescriptive to the individual. The statement is simply a declarative statement describing those who will be saved.

where are your verses for all of this?

 

[vassal]

Yes, He did reduce it to one narrow idea as you choose to call it- even though that one idea is eternal life through God's grace - and it is Jesus Christ alone the Savior:

[Heb 7:15-19, 22, 25 KJV]
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God. ...
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. ...
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

You keep hiding behind Hebrews while ignoring the words of Jesus Himself. Christ did not die to free you from obeying God; He died to free you from sin. And sin is breaking God’s commandments.

You say He reduced everything to one idea, yet He said plainly, “If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments” (John 14:15, ASV) and “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46). That is not lawlessness dressed up as grace. Christ saves to transform, not to excuse rebellion.

 

[Cameron143]

where are your verses for all of this?

For which in particular?

 

[Gideon300]

Pardon you, your ig

Entering into life is not a magic moment where nothing more matters. Jesus spoke of a narrow gate and a hard way that leads unto life (Matthew 7:13–14, ASV). It is a path walked, not a word spoken once.

He said clearly, “If thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17). He also said, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me” (Matthew 16:24). That is a changed heart and a new direction.

Life is tied to perseverance. Jesus said, “He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved” (Matthew 24:13). And again, “If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples” (John 8:31), and “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life” meaning a continual sharing in Him (John 6:54).

So entering into life and being saved are not two different roads. Salvation is entering into the life of Christ, and that life is walked in faith, obedience, and endurance until the end.

Pardon you, your ignoranceth is showingeth. You do not know the difference between the new birth and the ongoing salvation (better translated "deliverance") of the soul. To be born again is instantaneous and irreversible. To experience the salvation of the soul is a lifetime of carrying your cross and denying self. Some will enter heaven with no rewards. Some will have great rewards. And everything in between. Even the KJV maketh that cleareth.

 

[vassal]

For which in particular?

Most of your text if not all cannot be be backed by scripture. a lot of speculation in there.

 

[vassal]

Pardon you, your ig

Pardon you, your ignoranceth is showingeth. You do not know the difference between the new birth and the ongoing salvation (better translated "deliverance") of the soul. To be born again is instantaneous and irreversible. To experience the salvation of the soul is a lifetime of carrying your cross and denying self. Some will enter heaven with no rewards. Some will have great rewards. And everything in between. Even the KJV maketh that cleareth.

Strong words do not make a strong argument. Let us stay with what Jesus actually said.
You are making a sharp line that Jesus Himself never made. He never spoke of one moment that is forever secure while a different kind of “salvation” happens later as something separate. When He spoke about life, being born, being saved, entering the kingdom, and enduring, He spoke of one living reality.
In Gospel of John 3:3–5 (ASV), Jesus said, “Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God… Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Notice this: being born again is tied to entering the kingdom. It is not described as a detached event that guarantees everything regardless of what follows. It is the beginning of a life in the Spirit.
Then in Gospel of Matthew 24:13 (ASV) He said, “He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.” He did not say, “He that was once born again is unconditionally secure regardless of endurance.” He connected salvation with perseverance.
In John 15:6 (ASV) He warned, “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered.” These are not empty threats about lost rewards. Withered branches are not described as safely stored in heaven with fewer crowns. They are cast forth.
You speak of “entering heaven with no rewards.” Jesus did speak of rewards in Gospel of Matthew 5:12 and 6:1–6. There are indeed differences in reward. But reward is not the same thing as salvation. The warning passages are about being cut off, cast out, or not entering at all, not about a smaller paycheck in glory.
Even the parable of the talents in Gospel of Matthew 25:14–30 ends with the unprofitable servant being cast into the outer darkness. That is not “no reward but still heaven.” That is total exclusion.
The new birth is real. It is powerful. It is the work of God. But Jesus also said in John 8:31 (ASV), “If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples.” The proof of the new birth is abiding. Not perfection, but continuance.
So yes, there is a beginning. And yes, there is growth. But Scripture does not separate them into two different salvations where one is guaranteed and the other is optional. The life of Christ begins in a person and then must continue. A tree that truly has life bears fruit. A branch that does not remain is removed.

This is not ignorance. It is simply taking all of Jesus’ words together, not dividing them into systems He never taught.

 

[GWH]

We've discussed that before. If it has to be accepted, then it isn't grace - God unilaterally gives it to those whom He chose to salvation irrespective of a recipient's actions, as is His divine prerogative to do. He is the Savior and man is not.

No, if it has to be accepted, then sinners are justly punished in hell for refusing to open God's gift.
Your view impugns God's love and justness, which is your prerogative, but I don't advise it.

God loves and wants to save everyone. Seven Scriptures teaching divine omnilove include: John 3:16, 1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1Tim. 2:3-4. Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (Rom. 5:6-8) including His enemies: those who are ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ, pseudo-Christian (Matt. 7:21, John 8:42-44).

God is just (2Thes. 1:6a, cf. Rom. 3:25-26 & 9:14, Deut. 32:4, Psa. 36:6, Luke 11:42, Rev. 15:3). Explanations of God’s Word should not impugn God’s justice and love for all people (Joel 2:13, John 3:16). “God does not show favoritism/partiality” (Rom. 2:11, Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17).

 

[rogerg]

So worshipping only God is a carnal commandment???

Any worship of God by commandment is carnal and if it is given because of commandment, it is meaningless. Worship only has meaning with God if the one worshipping gives it from the heart and not by command, in which case, no command to do so is necessary.

[Jhn 4:23-24 KJV]
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

This is speaking of the laws in the sanctuary under the priesthood, animal sacrifices- fleshy ordinances. Not only using the name of the Lord in a holy manner.

No, it is not speaking of that.
A respective priesthood ministers to specific laws and commandments - all not some of them. When priesthood changes, of necessity, all laws and all commandments that it ministers to - being directly associated and linked to that particular priesthood - must also change. As high priest, Christ's priesthood came after the order of Melchisedec not after the order of Aaron.
Therefore, when Christ alone became the eternal high priest in heaven, all laws and commandments associated to the Levitical priesthood had to change with the change in priesthood, which they did. Being in Heaven, and not in Israel on earth, His priesthood is for everyone chosen by God unto salvation - those from all peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues - chosen by His grace and mercy, not by laws and commandments.
So, your comment about only the fleshy laws and commandments being changed by Christ, is misguided and in error.

[Heb 7:11-18 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

Christ saves those that come unto God BY Him, NOT BY LAW. That salvation is everlasting because Christ is the eternal high priest in Heaven.

[Heb 7:25-27 KJV]
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, [who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Our salvation is in Christ, the law is kept because one is saved Rev14:12, not to be saved. Christ would only lead us to obey Him, not disobey, If we see sin in our life, we need seek Jesus and ask for His help in overcoming- sin is the transgression of God's law 1John3:4 James 2:11 Mat5:19-30, so it not based on what we feel and its more than I just believe in God. Unbelief and disobedience in Scripture are used interchangeably Heb3:7-19 so if we do not have faith that is transforming us from the inside out, we may want to consider where we are in our walk with God. Jesus clearly states not everyone who says Lord Lord will make it to heaven, so instead of trying to do what will be the least we have to do to get into heaven and change that mindset to how can I serve and love God today to my fullest- what did He say how we serve Him and join ourselves to Him Isa 56:6 and love Him Exo20:6 John14:15 John15:10 do that.

You are making obedience to the Mosaic Law the criteria by which men are admitted into the Kingdom. I hope you do not believe this literally but you fail to make necessary distinctions to separate your beliefs from the erroneous opinions the Judaeizers which Paul condemned. The Galations also encountered many who were teaching that those who had been converted to Christ ALSO had to practice all the works of the Law. Thus being righteous depends on both faith and following the works of the LAW.

What were these "works?" We know exactly what they were by what Paul said in his letters. One issue was CIRCUMCISION. This was also a commandment just as was Keeping Shabbat. Under the covenant of Abraham and Moses circumcision was required of every male who was part of Israel by birth or who were seeking to join Israel. An uncircumcized person was, by definition, not a part of the covenant.
11Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world
(Ephesians 2:11-12)
However, the Apostles taught that circumcising Gentile converts was NO LONGER NECESSARY though it had been in earlier days when converts were called proselytes. As I recall, you have already claimed that whenever God issues a command it can never be altered or modified.

Paul also wrote more directly about whether Levitical and Mosaic laws had to be followed in perpetuity:
16Therefore let no one JUDGE YOU by what you EAT or DRINK, or with regard to a FEAST, a NEW MOON, or a SABBATH (Colossians 2:16)
Here Paul mentions a number of practices that were required under the Covenant of the Law. He commanded believers not to JUDGE OTHER BELIEVERS who do not practice these things as a part of their faith Yet you seem to have made judging others for not keeping the Law your specialty.

Keeping Shabbat is not the only law. Along with this were many other commandments like: eating Kosher and not associating with non-believers. All of these practices were examined by the Apostles and by revelation it was determined to be no longer required under the provisions of the NEW COVENANT. So much for your assumption that once God issues a command He can never withdraw or modify it.

 

[Cameron143]

Most of your text if not all cannot be be backed by scripture. a lot of speculation in there.

Tell me one at a time and I'll supply scripture for each.

 

[rogerg]

No, if it has to be accepted, then sinners are justly punished in hell for refusing to open God's gift.
Your view impugns God's love and justness, which is your prerogative, but I don't advise it.

If it has to be accepted, it is work and not grace: God's grace has no stipulations nor requirements associated to the receiving of it - it is all by God and that's what makes it grace.

And your view impugns God's prerogative as God and Savior to freely save whom He will. The gift is that, as a gift, to whom it is given, it came opened and is so within those who receive it with nothing else required of them.

I might go through your list of verses later to refute each one of them but don't feel like doing so now.

 

[vassal]

Tell me one at a time and I'll supply scripture for each.

I wont have time today but i would like for you to add scripture to what you write, it's always a good thing to do.

 

[GWH]

If it has to be accepted, it is work and not grace: God's grace has no stipulations nor requirements associated to the receiving of it - it is all by God and that's what makes it grace.

And your view impugns God's prerogative as God and Savior to freely save whom He will. The gift is that, as a gift, to whom it is given, it came opened and is so within those who receive it with nothing else required of them.

I might go through your list of verses later to refute each one of them but don't feel like doing so now.

No, opening a Christmas present does not mean you earned it,
and accepting it is not meritorious.

If you would feel like learning GW rather than refuting it, you would understand the meaning of omnilove (John 3:16, 1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1Tim. 2:3-4), Christ's death (Rom. 5:6-8, Matt. 5:44 &48), God's justness (2Thes. 1:6a, cf. Rom. 3:25-26 & 9:14, Deut. 32:4, Psa. 36:6, Luke 11:42, Rev. 15:3) and fairness or impartiality (Joel 2:13, Rom. 2:11, Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17).

 

[Cameron143]

I wont have time today but i would like for you to add scripture to what you write, it's always a good thing to do.

I don't write anything I don't believe is supported by scripture, but as you have asked, I will attempt to acquiesce to your commandment. Wouldn't want to be guilty of not becoming all things to all people.

 

[rogerg]

You keep hiding behind Hebrews while ignoring the words of Jesus Himself. Christ did not die to free you from obeying God; He died to free you from sin. And sin is breaking God’s commandments.

You say He reduced everything to one idea, yet He said plainly, “If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments” (John 14:15, ASV) and “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46). That is not lawlessness dressed up as grace. Christ saves to transform, not to excuse rebellion.

Quoting Scripture is not "hiding" but that you identify it as such clearly reveals how, and what, you perceive as being Scripture and demonstrates your lack of comprehension as to its spiritual doctrines.
With the new priesthood of Christ, the old earthly laws and commandment came to an end for those saved with the new coming to fruition for them. The unsaved, however, remain under the old.

Your problem is that you don't/can't comprehend that Scripture was written by God as ONE integrated book from beginning to end. It cannot/will not contradict or be in conflict with itself as you would like to make it appear that it is. And therefore, you cannot understand that there are new commandments now in effect, nor of what they are. So, the only one between us actually in rebellion is you because you remain trapped under the Old Covenant when the New Covenant of God's mercy and grace through Christ alone as Savior, is God's sole covenant and is His glory, it no longer being the Old Covenant and its commandments and laws.

 

[rogerg]

No, opening a Christmas present does not mean you earned it,
and accepting it is not meritorious.

If you would feel like learning GW rather than refuting it, you would understand the meaning of omnilove (John 3:16, 1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1Tim. 2:3-4), Christ's death (Rom. 5:6-8, Matt. 5:44 &48), God's justness (2Thes. 1:6a, cf. Rom. 3:25-26 & 9:14, Deut. 32:4, Psa. 36:6, Luke 11:42, Rev. 15:3) and fairness or impartiality (Joel 2:13, Rom. 2:11, Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17).

Were that true it would mean you had to work to obtain it instead of it being a free gift from God, and in doing work, it, by definition, makes it not by grace.
Believe me, I understand God's word and salvation is not, nor can it be, by any work or action of man, period.

 

[GWH]

Were that true it would mean you had to work to obtain it instead of it being a free gift from God, and in doing work, it, by definition, makes it not by grace.
Believe me, I understand God's word and salvation is not, nor can it be, by any work or action of man, period.

But what you fail to understand and stubbornly insist on is defining faith as work in opposition to GW, exclamation!

 

[rogerg]

But what you fail to understand and stubbornly insist on is defining faith as work in opposition to GW, exclamation!

No. The obtaining true belief/faith is not a work but it is only by God's work. But in any event. our faith does not give grace, but God's grace gives our faith. You've reversed the sequence.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;