The Security Of The Believer

[Tulipbee]

Weeeell I don't know about there beimg harmony here. A Christian forum and a local NT church are very different. A forum can point people to churches..but it is no church in itself.

Anyway that is very creative writing ✍️

**Calvin's View on the Significance of the Local Church**

According to John Calvin, the church is "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15) and "the household of God" (1 Timothy 3:15). He believed that the local church is essential for the spiritual growth and well-being of believers. In his Institutes of the Christian Religion, Calvin wrote:

> "The Church is the assembly of believers in which the pure Word of God is preached, the sacraments are duly administered, and Christian discipline is exercised." (Book IV, Chapter 1, Section 7)

**Biblical Support for the Importance of the Local Church**

* **Matthew 18:20:** "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
* **Acts 2:42:** "And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers."
* **1 Corinthians 12:27:** "Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually."
* **Ephesians 4:11-12:** "And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ."

**Conclusion**

Calvin's view of the local church is that it is essential for the spiritual growth and well-being of believers. He believed that it is within the local church that believers can find sound biblical teaching, nurture one another in their faith, and exercise Christian discipline. The Bible supports the importance of the local church, describing it as the pillar and ground of the truth, the household of God, and the body of Christ.

 

[Magenta]

Calvin wrote:

> "The Church is the assembly of believers in which the pure Word of God is preached, the sacraments
are duly administered, and Christian discipline is exercised." (Book IV, Chapter 1, Section 7)

Which ones? .

 

[Magenta]

In the quaint village of Theologica, where theological discussions meandered like a gentle stream, Aussie52 found himself engaged in a conversation about Arminianism. The sun cast its golden hues upon the cobblestone streets as the exchange unfolded.
A figure named Calvinus, a scholar well-versed in the teachings of John Calvin, stepped forward. "In the Institutes of the Christian Religion, Calvin delves into the intricate dance between God's sovereignty and human responsibility. It's a tapestry woven with divine purpose," Calvinus began.
Quoting from Calvin's writings, he continued, "God, by his eternal and immutable counsel, determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his pleasure to doom to destruction."
Aussie52 listened intently as Calvinus shared Calvinistic insights. "The essence of Calvinism lies in the belief that God, in His sovereignty, predestines individuals for salvation. It's a profound mystery that emphasizes God's initiative in the salvation of His chosen ones," Calvinus explained.
As the conversation unfolded, Aussie52 voiced his perspective as an Arminian. Calvinus responded with kindness, "In the spirit of understanding, let us respect each other's perspectives. Arminianism, with its emphasis on human free will, presents a different viewpoint. It's a nuanced dialogue that invites us to explore the mysteries of divine grace and human response."
Yet, the atmosphere took a turn as the topic shifted to Arminianism errors. Aussie52, with conviction, defended his beliefs, "I, as an Arminian, am not eccentric and I don't have a casual approach to Jesus."
In response, Calvinus continued, "Let us engage in a genuine dialogue, acknowledging the diversity of theological perspectives. While Calvinism underscores the sovereignty of God, Arminianism places emphasis on human choice."
Under the imaginary sky of Theologica, the two figures continued their discourse, exchanging ideas and exploring the rich tapestry of theological thought. May the village be adorned with the kindness that befits the pursuit of truth and understanding. #ChristianReflections

John 12:31-32

 

[Tulipbee]

Which ones? .

**Calvin's View on the Church**

According to Calvin's Institutes of Religion, the church is "a society of believers in which the pure Word of God is preached, the sacraments are duly administered, and Christian discipline is exercised." (Book IV, Chapter 1, Section 7) Calvin believed that the church is essential for the salvation of believers, as it is through the church that God's grace is dispensed.

**Biblical Support for Calvin's View**

Calvin's view of the church is supported by several passages in the Bible. For example, in Matthew 16:18, Jesus says, "I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." This passage suggests that the church is a divine institution that is destined to endure.

In Ephesians 5:25-27, Paul writes, "Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish." This passage highlights the importance of the church as the bride of Christ and emphasizes the need for it to be pure and holy.

**Conclusion**

Calvin's view of the church is based on a careful reading of Scripture. He believed that the church is a divine institution that is essential for the salvation of believers. This view is supported by several passages in the Bible, which emphasize the importance of the church and its role in God's plan for redemption.

 

[Magenta]

**Calvin's View on the Church**

... the sacraments

Which ones? .

 

[Nehemiah6]

Arminians seem a bit eccentric and casual in their approach to Jesus.

Not really. If you want to compare Arminianism with Calvinism, then you should actually comment on the five articles of the Remonstrants:

The Five Articles of the Remonstrants, 1610
Article 1. [Note: should say opposed to TULIP]
[Conditional Election - corresponds to the second of TULIP’s five points, Unconditional Election]
That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son before the foundation of the world, has determined that out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath and to condemn them as alienated from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that does not believe the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.

Article 2. [Note: should say opposed to TULIP]
[Unlimited Atonement - corresponds to the third of TULIP’s five points, Limited Atonement]
That, accordingly, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

Article 3. [Note: this matches Total Depravity in TULIP]
[Deprivation - corresponds to the first of TULIP’s five points, Total Depravity]
That man does not posses saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is necessary that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, and will, and all his faculties, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me you can do nothing.”

Article 4. [Note: should say opposed to TULIP]
[Resistible Grace - corresponds to the fourth of TULIP’s five points, Irresistible Grace]
That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to the extent that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But with respect to the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, since it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Spirit (Acts 7, and elsewhere in many places).

Article 5. [Note: this is ambiguous]
[Assurance and Security - corresponds to the fifth of TULIP’s five points, Perseverance of the Saints]
That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, as a result have full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no deceit or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of neglecting grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind.

These Articles, thus set forth and taught, the Remonstrants deem agreeable to the Word of God, tending to edification, and, as regards this argument, sufficient for salvation, so that it is not necessary or edifying to rise higher or to descend deeper.

"The Articles of the Remonstrants" are adapted from Phillip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom, Volume 3, Baker Books, Grand Rapids, 1996, pp 545ff.

So to some degree they simply modified TULIP (which is a false gospel in itself).

 

[wattie]

Which ones? .

A New Testament church has distinguishing features that make it one God would call His own, but it isn't by a particular denomination name. A Baptist church could have these features and also a non-denominational church. The first churches were just churches without a type of name.

But they did have distinctives

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

For many years people have debated the Biblical doctrine of Security.

Then why the BIBLICAL WARNINGS???

 

[IloveViethoney]

OSAS - once saved always saved

I don't know how these people would deal with statements in Ezekiel (around chapter 20) where it says that if one forsakes their wickedness for righteousness, then God will forget their sin and forgive them for it. On the other hand, if one were to forsake righteousness to practice wickedness, then God will forget the good they've done. I don't think the work of Jesus changed this policy.

Then there's the whole Romans 12 branches being cut off thing that Jesus also referred to. Branches that are fruitless get cut off. If you were grafted in and then become fruitless, he will certainly cut you off and remove you if he was willing to do that to the fruitless, natural branches.

I have come to accept God is going to judge on a second by second basis. If you get mad at someone and yell some mean things at them, God isn't going to forget about your day to day dedication if you happen to die in that moment. Someone who is completely gone and useless will not be treated as the faithful and dedicated.

 

[wattie]

OSAS - once saved always saved

I don't know how these people would deal with statements in Ezekiel (around chapter 20) where it says that if one forsakes their wickedness for righteousness, then God will forget their sin and forgive them for it. On the other hand, if one were to forsake righteousness to practice wickedness, then God will forget the good they've done. I don't think the work of Jesus changed this policy.

Then there's the whole Romans 12 branches being cut off thing that Jesus also referred to. Branches that are fruitless get cut off. If you were grafted in and then become fruitless, he will certainly cut you off and remove you if he was willing to do that to the fruitless, natural branches.

I have come to accept God is going to judge on a second by second basis. If you get mad at someone and yell some mean things at them, God isn't going to forget about your day to day dedication if you happen to die in that moment. Someone who is completely gone and useless will not be treated as the faithful and dedicated.

What about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit..as an actual physical possession?

This isn't dependent on our behaviour after being saved.

Getting born into a family.. you have a biological connection..the parents blood. This cannot be undone and has nothing to do with the goodness or badness of the child.

If you could lose your salvation, you'd be saying this connection is LESSER than that of a biological parent. You'd be saying God does not have enough power to stay with you thru all your struggles. That His spiritual indwelling is not sufficient.

 

[Aussie52]

I think it comes down to this. Is salvation CONDITIONAL or UNCONDITIONAL?
If unconditional, then it is all from God's side.
If it is conditional, as I believe it is, faith and obedience must continue throughout our lifetime. If I cease to believe and cease to obey, I have opted out of the conditions of salvation and thus forfeit my salvation.
We are indeed kept by the power of God BUT through faith.

 

[IloveViethoney]

What about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit..as an actual physical possession?

This isn't dependent on our behaviour after being saved.

Getting born into a family.. you have a biological connection..the parents blood. This cannot be undone and has nothing to do with the goodness or badness of the child.

If you could lose your salvation, you'd be saying this connection is LESSER than that of a biological parent. You'd be saying God does not have enough power to stay with you thru all your struggles. That His spiritual indwelling is not sufficient.

Being part of God's family is a spiritual thing. If you abandon such spiritual things, then you will no longer be in the family. It's similar to how the Pharisees claimed to be related to Abraham and Jesus pointed out they were the offspring of snakes instead.

Hewbrews 6:4-8

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

I don't take this to mean engage in sin, but more of a complete abandonment of the faith. It proves one can be in and then end up where they are out. In this case if they've experienced all the things God has to offer but decide they'd rather have something else, it's impossible to bring them back in.

King David always requested God not take His Spirit from him. That would mean the Spirit can be given, and it can be taken away.

 

[wattie]

I think it comes down to this. Is salvation CONDITIONAL or UNCONDITIONAL?
If unconditional, then it is all from God's side.
If it is conditional, as I believe it is, faith and obedience must continue throughout our lifetime. If I cease to believe and cease to obey, I have opted out of the conditions of salvation and thus forfeit my salvation.
We are indeed kept by the power of God BUT through faith.

Okay..but how does that work with the Holy Spirit indwelling a person's spirit?

It is an actual physical possession. Not like God is outside of a believer and His presence comes and goes with their level of faith.

John 5:24 has a believer possessing eternal life. As does most of the rest of the book of John.

It's their possession before death..in past tense that continues to remain in them.

 

[wattie]

Being part of God's family is a spiritual thing. If you abandon such spiritual things, then you will no longer be in the family. It's similar to how the Pharisees claimed to be related to Abraham and Jesus pointed out they were the offspring of snakes instead.

Hewbrews 6:4-8

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

I don't take this to mean engage in sin, but more of a complete abandonment of the faith. It proves one can be in and then end up where they are out. In this case if they've experienced all the things God has to offer but decide they'd rather have something else, it's impossible to bring them back in.

Again..how does this work with the Holy Spirit actually indwelling a person's spirit?

You are putting behavioral requirements on a permanent indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 6 isn't about loss of salvation. It's about Hebrew believers being admonished to leave the elementary principles, and go onto maturity. That's the preceding context in Hebrews 5.

So a Hebrew believer who falls away.. can't be renewed to repentance..because they already have ! They have already learned the elementary principles of the faith and are being admonished to go onto maturity.

Compare this passage with Hebrews 10...where the Hebrew believers want to return to sacrifices of bulls and goats. Even though they are no longer under that OT covenant.

They are treating Jesus's payment for sin as nothing. Thinking animal sacrifice will atone. But it does not say they will be sent to hell, but disciplined thru purging fire of wrath.

 

[Aussie52]

The Holy Spirit can be quenched and grieved away by persistent sin and apostasy.

 

[wattie]

The Holy Spirit can be quenched and grieved away by persistent sin and apostasy.

Grieved away? A physical possession?

He can indeed be grieved by our sin according to the bible and will rebuke us when we do sin if we are converted.

But what you are talking about is the Holy Spirit removing His seal from us..His presence in our spirit. That is not in scripture.

The warning verses are about discipline and rebuke..not removal of eternal life that exists past and present tense for a believer.

In Revelation the warning about the candle stick being removed is not about an individuals salvation..but the presence of the Holy Spirit as Comforter in a local congregation. He can remove His presence as Head of a local church and that church ceases to be His.

That doesn't mean the individuals in said church have lost eternal life.

Different roles of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Aussie52]

So, do you believe that if a Christian walks away from Christ or lives in an adulterous relationship, if he were to die, would still go to Heaven?

 

[wattie]

So, do you believe that if a Christian walks away from Christ or lives in an adulterous relationship, if he were to die, would still go to Heaven?

Yes, but they would be disciplined and rebuked. So it would be unlikely they would stay in those sins.

The other question is why Jesus, having died for their sin, and forgiven them..would not forgive those sins?

Plus.. most believers go through those sin issues. Not that they are rebelling..but fall into waywardness. Have they all lost eternal life?

It comes down to this: Is Christ's atonement for your sins enough? That is the real question

 

[Aussie52]

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED. Neither fornicators....nor adulterers....
will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Cor 6:9,10. NKJV.

You can't get around the plain meaning of scripture, a Christian who commits adultery, remains unrepentant and dies in his sin, goes to Hell. Sins are ONLY forgiven if there is true confession 1 Jn 1:9.

To believe otherwise is a form of Antinominism.

 

[wattie]

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED. Neither fornicators....nor adulterers....
will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Cor 6:9,10. NKJV.

You can't get around the plain meaning of scripture, a Christian who commits adultery, remains unrepentant and dies in his sin, goes to Hell. Sins are ONLY forgiven if there is true confession 1 Jn 1:9.

To believe otherwise is a form of Antinominism.

David..who is an adulterer, had some inheritance in the kingdom.

The inheritance in this verse, by context is about rewards..not entrance, to heaven.

A believer who is caught in adultery will be rebuked and disciplined, and lose rewards. A believer who is faithful has greater inheritance.

Inheritance is different to entrance to heaven.

Or the other way to look at it is of someone whose entire life can be characterized by these sins..and so they never got converted.

But the context I don't think is of this kind of person.

Either way.. it isn't about loss of eternal life.