The Rapture

[preston39]

Hey all, I'm heading to Hawaii for a much needed break. Will try to put out the volcano while there. Will see you all on the flip side.

P....,

Be safe...enjoy.

 

[tanakh]

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the Prophets
at many times and in various ways. But in these last days he
has spoken to us by his Son

Hebrews 1:1-2 NIV

Its clear from this passage that the last days started at the first coming
not in 1948 1967 or any other time. We know this because Hebrews
was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

My little Children this is the last hour and as you heard
that the antichrist is coming even now many antichrists
have come. This is how we know that it is the last hour
They went out from us , but they did not really belong to
us. For if they had belonged to us they would have remained
with us. But their going showed that none of them belonged to
us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One and all of you
know the truth

1 John 2:8-20 NIV

John calls his time the last hour and according to him
antichrists come from within the church. How many
antichrists and false prophets have we in our churches
today that are being listened to?

 

[Endoscopy]

I love and respect you brother, hope you know that? Let me see if I understand you, you agree that the presence of Christ returned in 70 AD but that He will come again in our future? Did I get that right? So, you see a dual fulfillment? What tells you that it's dual?

FYI, I totally think God or Christ's presence could return again to punish the wicked in our future. That has been His pattern. When He's had enough, he's had enough. It says in Rev 20 He will send fire down to devour those who came against his beloved city, which I equate to the church, but could be modern Jerusalem.

I totally reject the view of eschatology you push. I don't try to make it something else than as stated. I stand on the word of Jesus being a statement of fact and don't try to change what he claimed. All the tribes of earth not just Israel. The rapture will take place. Prophecy states that the tribulations will take place immediately after this to punish the non believers. None of this has occurred. These are absolutely not spirit world events. Therefore 70AD is bogus.

Matthew 24 AMPC

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendor].
31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect (His chosen ones) from the four winds, [even] from one end of the universe to the other.
32 From the fig tree learn this lesson: as soon as its young shoots become soft and tender and it puts out its leaves, you know of a surety that summer is near.
33 So also when you see these signs, all taken together, coming to pass, you may know of a surety that He is near, at the very doors.
34 Truly I tell you, this generation (the whole multitude of people living at the same time, in a definite, given period) will not pass away till all these things taken together take place.
35 Sky and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

 

[ComeLordJesus]

I suppose I lean more towards the prewrath rapture which also may be mid trib i'm entirely sure but I also may be wrong and perhaps we will be taken before all this happens. I have to say though i very much doubt the post trib rapture is true.
There is a difference between the tribulation and God's wrath and the bowls of judgement are not meant for his children as the scriptures say
1 Thessalonians 5:9King James Version (KJV)

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
However he never promised us we would not face tribulation in fact Jesus himself said John16:33 I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world

However it happens and whatever view point others have on the happenings and timing of the rapture even if it contrasts my own it is not for me to judge or to look down upon them for it. We may have vastly different understanding and may have beliefs that completely contradict each other but in Christ we are one. You will find that many will argue and attack each other and mock and name call simply because of their difference in understanding of the rapture but as for me love has taught me that it is not for me to judge anyone for their understanding of the subject sadly this is a lesson many have yet to learn.

So 2nice in your studies of the rapture you will find that what you learn and may see as the truth will contradict that of others and in time your view point may change as well and you will also see the power that this subject alone has over people making them attack each other and use scripture as a weapon simply because their understanding of the subject differs. But you must not be like this because such people are blind and lack the understanding that only love can give, had such people seen through loves eyes they would be at peace in debating the subject and their understanding would vastly increase instead of being limited with their fire to attack and mock others.

So in essence as you study the rapture remember always to have the love of God in your heart for only then will you be given the eyes to truly see the truth hidden within the truth. many see the truth and argue and attack each other but there is a truth hidden within the truth that will only be seen and understood with the heart and eyes of love.

I would be willing to bet there is a difference between tribulation in John 16:33 and "THE Tribulation."

 

[Deade]

I would be willing to bet there is a difference between tribulation in John 16:33 and "THE Tribulation."

And you would be absolutely right. John 16:33 just state that the world will give us trouble, that's all it says. I feel sorry for those that think they will be raptured before the world falls to pieces, so to speak. Will their faith waver as they are being put to death

 

[shrume]

And you would be absolutely right. John 16:33 just state that the world will give us trouble, that's all it says. I feel sorry for those that think they will be raptured before the world falls to pieces, so to speak. Will their faith waver as they are being put to death

I feel sorry for Christians who think they'll be going through the trib.

(yep... I'm pre-trib.)

 

[ComeLordJesus]

Revelation 3:10 is known as a passage that supports the pre-trib rapture doctrine, but the second half of the verse introduces us to the first use of the term "earthdwellers." "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth." 3:10 is the first use in Revelation of a phrase "earth dwellers" but usually translated "those who dwell upon the earth." This phrase is used eleven times in nine verses in Revelation (3:10;6:10; 8:13; 11:10 2xs; 13:8, 12, 14 2xs; 14:6; 17:8). "Earth dwellers" is a designation for persistent unbelievers during the tribulation.

All of these Revelation references to 'them that dwell upon the earth' clearly indicate that they will be unsaved people of the future period of testing who will never get saved. . . . In spite of the devastating horrors of the sixth trumpet, which will kill one-third of mankind,the earth-dwellers will not repent of their wicked deeds (Rev. 9:20–21)."

Not a single one of the will follow the Lamb, instead they will wonder after the Beast(17:8).

 

[Ahwatukee]

And you would be absolutely right. John 16:33 just state that the world will give us trouble, that's all it says. I feel sorry for those that think they will be raptured before the world falls to pieces, so to speak. Will their faith waver as they are being put to death

Deade,

"I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take courage; I have overcome the world!” - John 16:33

What you are claiming above is an on-going error that many make regarding the time of God's wrath. The tribulation that is being described above is referring to the tribulation that comes from the testimony of Christ and the word of God. However, what is quickly approaching is the wrath of God, which is not the same as the trials and tribulation that Jesus said believers would have. The difference is that, trials and tribulation come at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness as a result of our faith in Christ, where as God's coming wrath, which is the day of the Lord, will be God's direct wrath being poured out upon the earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. It is the latter that believers are not appointed to suffer.

Regarding God's coming wrath, the word of God states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and that the Lord would keep us out of that time of wrath (Rom.5:9, I Thes.1:10, 5:9, Rev.3:10). The underlying principle is that, Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. Those in Christ have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God and therefore, the wrath of God no longer rests upon them. God's wrath does however rest upon those who have not believed - John 3:36

In short, by your quoting John 16:33, you are confusing the common trials and tribulation that Jesus said believers would have because of our faith in Him, with the coming wrath of God. You are not making a distinction between the two.

To keep us from God's time of wrath, according to His promise in John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-18, the Lord will return to gather His church to take us back to the Father's house, removing us from the earth prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath.

 

[CS1]

I have not been subject to Gods wrath. When God Pours it out I will not be here but if you want to stay go right a head

 

[tanakh]

I love and respect you brother, hope you know that? Let me see if I understand you, you agree that the presence of Christ returned in 70 AD but that He will come again in our future? Did I get that right? So, you see a dual fulfillment? What tells you that it's dual?

FYI, I totally think God or Christ's presence could return again to punish the wicked in our future. That has been His pattern. When He's had enough, he's had enough. It says in Rev 20 He will send fire down to devour those who came against his beloved city, which I equate to the church, but could be modern Jerusalem.

Yes I believe that the events of the Jewish war were a judgement on Israel and that Christ will return a second time. His teaching method followed the same pattern as the OT Prophets whose Prophecies often had more than one application. Apart from that throughout Church history Christs second coming in judgement has been anticipated. That belief is based on the whole of the Bible. Eusibius mentioned Josephus' writings in his history of the Church but they didn't stop him from believing in the second coming. All Josephus does is confirm what Christ prophesied would happen to Jerusalem, the Temple and its inhabitants he was not an apologist for the Christian faith.

 

[preston39]

I use the NKJV for normal daily reading, KJV or YLT if I want to dig deeper. Yes, that's the problem, most teachers (pastors) have learned in several institutions from futurist dispensationalists. This is why most of the teaching today is totally messed up. Did you know that none of the early church writers from the 2-3 centuries ever said a word about Christ's second coming. Heck, that's all the disciples could talk about once Jesus left. Why do you think that is? It's because He returned and they all knew it for 200 years.

When you have multiple contemporary historians, Tacitus and Josephus writing about chariots and phantom solders in armor in the sky circling the cities of Israel, what do you conclude about that?

Christ said He was returning to THAT generation, to those standing there, before they have gone through all the towns of Israel. Was He wrong? Also, the Greek says it's His presence which returns, not Him as a visible man.

P...,

The KJV does not support your interpretation.

 

[preston39]

Revelation 3:10 is known as a passage that supports the pre-trib rapture doctrine, but the second half of the verse introduces us to the first use of the term "earthdwellers." "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth." 3:10 is the first use in Revelation of a phrase "earth dwellers" but usually translated "those who dwell upon the earth." This phrase is used eleven times in nine verses in Revelation (3:10;6:10; 8:13; 11:10 2xs; 13:8, 12, 14 2xs; 14:6; 17:8). "Earth dwellers" is a designation for persistent unbelievers during the tribulation.

All of these Revelation references to 'them that dwell upon the earth' clearly indicate that they will be unsaved people of the future period of testing who will never get saved. . . . In spite of the devastating horrors of the sixth trumpet, which will kill one-third of mankind,the earth-dwellers will not repent of their wicked deeds (Rev. 9:20–21)."Not a single one of the will follow the Lamb, instead they will wonder after the Beast(17:8).

C...,

KJV....3;10... Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Just because your chosen edition of thee Bible was changed to ..earth dwellers....(makes no sense) doesn't justify your conclusion that that reference was absent from the Bible. So what?

 

[Endoscopy]

Correct, real world events happened in 70 AD, and Christ was there supervising it all. Show me one verse where a city, town or country outside of the Roman Empire is mentioned anywhere in the Bible. List me one south of the equator, or in the Americas. The "world" was the known world as in Roman Empire which is where they lived and where the disciples stayed with none venturing outside the Roman Empire.

I already proved to you that "all mankind" meant "all Jews" and I showed you the passage in the OT that proves it. Everything in those passages in Rev you cite dealt with the destruction of Israel and their invaders, the Roman forces. ALL OF IT. None of it is future to us. All of the seals, trumpets and bowls are done, over, caput. Nothing is left to do.

It is impossible for those events to have happened in 70AD!! I totally reject your hypothesis and stand on the text of the Bible and not your interpretation contrary to what the scripture text states. You use your paradigm of eschatology to make the text say something other than what it plainly states. Solo scriptorum!! Only today can with our communications allows the WHOLE EARTH be able to see the events prophecied to be seen by the WHOLE EARTH!! Quit trying to change the text.

 

[Endoscopy]

P...,

Never have I heard your interpretation of The Bible.

I must question the entire conclusion you present and have never heard another with the same conclusion;

What bible do you use?

Today, that is critical since we have hundreds of editions...many of which I have not wasted the time to familiarize myself with, and don't plan to.

Correction on terminology. We have different TRANSLATIONS not versions. There is a major difference in the words. I suggest you use biblegateway.com and you can select book, chapter and translation. Then select another translation to compare. I prefer NIV for normal reading in modern English but there are other good modern translations. I use AMPC for more in depth study since it gives multiple translations of words with multiple meanings. Here is John 3:16 with several translations. Note the added information in AMPC. It makes for a bit of combersom reading but adds dimensions of understanding.

John 3:16 KJV
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


John 3:16 NIV
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


John 3:16 ESV
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


John 3 AMPC Amplified Classic
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

 

[Endoscopy]

That's nice about the verb tenses in the Greek. What about in the Hebrew which is what Daniel was written in? Daniel does not say, "end times." He says, "later end of these" and "the time of the end." You say he meant the end of planet earth. I say he meant the end of Israel which happened in 70 AD. So who is correct?

When did sacrifices end? Have sacrifices ceased or are they still going on? Your theory requires sacrifices to begin again and then end again. If that's the case, why did Daniel jump over the next occasion of them ending?

Daniel 9 talks about HIS PEOPLE. It concludes with their consummation by fire. The next time their city was consumed by fire was 70 AD.

Dan 12:1 starts off talking only about Israel, "sons of thy people." In fact, "Thy people" is found twice in Dan 12:1. The time is an incredible time of distress. The next time since Daniel they endured an incredible time of distress was in the second century under Antiochus IV Ep. But he already covers this in Dan 8. The next time after that was 70 AD which was the end of his people for 1,900 years.

Now, let's look at 12:7:

And I hear the one clothed in linen, who [is] upon the waters of the flood, and he doth lift up his right hand and his left unto the heavens, and sweareth by Him who is living to the age, that, `After a time, times, and a half, and at the completion of the scattering of the power of the holy people, finished are all these.​

Notice the scattering of his people was the end of these things? This has to refer to the scattering of 70 AD because the first diaspora already occurred. Immediately upon hearing this Daniel asks:

And I have heard, and I do not understand, and I say, `O my lord, what [is] the latter end of these?'​

"Later end of these" Did you get that? Later end of when his people were scattered referring back to verse 7. It was 70 AD when His people scattered again. It was then that the 2nd temple was destroyed. The sacrifices stopped back then. Nothing indicates the end of planet earth was in focus!! Its all about Daniel's people and what would become of them at the end ~560 years later.

Let go of your long held beliefs and let scripture talk to you. Your view has Christ as a liar since He said He would return to that generation. He said that some of those standing there would see Him. He said they would not go through all the towns of Israel before He returned. They were told to wait, watch and be sober. In Revelation He repeatedly said He was coming quickly. Why not take Him at His word instead of jumping through all these hoops to try to explain the clear, plain word away?
​

"Finished are all these!!!" Revelation unlocks the sealed book, it doesn't contain another hidden message. All was revealed in Revelation.

​

​Daniel states it is sealed until end times period!! Revelations is a parallel book and therefore the same applies. Especially since both have plain and symbolic prophecies. End times has not occurred since the prophecies haven't occurred!!

 

[Endoscopy]

The Law died on the cross when the veil was torn and the new kingdom covenant began on Pentecost, but the prophecies of the Law and prophets would still be fulfilled.

It does not say that it would "remain in place" until then, it says that everything required in the Law and Prophets must take place to be fulfilled and that Jesus was here to fulfill them and cause them to be fulfilled.

Jesus brought the old covenant to an end when He died.

There wasn't a duel covenant that ran parallel to the new as shown in Galatians 3. (If you believe that, a SDA church is around the corner.)




No one was ever saved by keeping the Law.

Before the Law of Moses came, souls were saved by love, faith, and grace.

But when the Law came, souls were saved by love, faith, and grace.

Then in the new covenant, souls are saved by love, faith, and grace.

Has it really changed that much?




The eternal death, yes.




Since those who are keeping the Law have rejected Jesus and His grace, they will be found lacking. Salvation does not come by the works of the Law of Moses.









Ok, you make a contract for 5 loads of gravel at 10 dollars a load. The man brings 5 loads of gravel and you pay the man 50 dollars. That fulfills the covenant that you made with the man, that ends the agreement.

The next year you go to the man and say I would please like 5 more loads of gravel at 10 dollars a load. But he says that the load of gravel is now 7 dollars a load. Then you might say that you have an agreement for 5 dollars a load.

But the man says that the previous agreement ended when he fulfilled his side of the covenant.

Jesus fulfilled God's side of the covenant on the cross. If you want your gravel, you will have to go into a new covenant with Jesus.





Jesus speaking to Israelites like us, Israelite to Israelite.






We still have the writings of the Israelite Law and Israelite prophets today, so they have not been abolished or disappeared.





The power of the Law covenant was ended at the cross, when Jesus delivered the gravel, died.




Disappear? What does that mean to you? Disappear from all knowledge of men? I mean that the Laws are still readable today, so they still have not "disappeared" even to this day. Could it mean fulfilled? That is, everything must happen to meet the requirements on the Law and prophets?

So that when they are fulfilled, they disappear, as fulfilled?



Do you keep the commands of the Law? Have you set them aside? Do you teach others to keep the Law and the Prophets?

Or have you chosen the new covenant?




Love, faith, and grace....

I stand on what Jesus said! Everything has not been accomplished.

Matthew 5:17 to 20 NIV

The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

FYI here is the law!

In addition to the 10 commandments there are the laws scattered through the Torah.


List of the 613 laws in the Torah
http://www.gods-word-first.org/bible-study/613commandments.html


Discussion about the 613 laws in the Torah
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

 

[Endoscopy]

Addendum caused by the stupid 5 minute rule again
I thank God for Jesus sacrificing himself as the unblemished Lamb of God taking our sins (breaking the law) on himself for all whowho accept Him. Looking at the law it is easily seen we are unable to keep it.

Woe to those who reject Jesus!!

 

[abcdef]

​Daniel states it is sealed until end times period!! Revelations is a parallel book and therefore the same applies. Especially since both have plain and symbolic prophecies. End times has not occurred since the prophecies haven't occurred!!

Brother Endoscopy,

When do we see His face?

When does the world see His face?

No man can see His face and live Ex 33:20.

So when does every eye see Him?

 

[preston39]

Correction on terminology. We have different TRANSLATIONS not versions.

John 3:16 ESV
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Providing!......

E...,
My terminology is correct.

Where in my post do you find ..."version"?

Don't attempt spin...shoot straight.

 

[garee]

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the Prophets
at many times and in various ways. But in these last days he
has spoken to us by his Son

Hebrews 1:1-2 NIV

Its clear from this passage that the last days started at the first coming
not in 1948 1967 or any other time. We know this because Hebrews
was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

My little Children this is the last hour and as you heard
that the antichrist is coming even now many antichrists
have come. This is how we know that it is the last hour
They went out from us , but they did not really belong to
us. For if they had belonged to us they would have remained
with us. But their going showed that none of them belonged to
us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One and all of you
know the truth

1 John 2:8-20 NIV

John calls his time the last hour and according to him
antichrists come from within the church. How many
antichrists and false prophets have we in our churches
today that are being listened to?

Yes the last days are signaled by the words; it is finished and renting of the veil to signify the beginning of the last days . The time of reformation had come the Jews lost their outward identity according to their temporal flesh as Kings and Fathers which they used to produce a false zeal for knowing God .

All of their oral traditions of the fathers that made the word of God without effect had come to an end.

Some denominations followed after the other authority of men and also adapted a "law of the fathers" using the word fathers inappropriately, the kind of fathers which Christ called a brood of vipers. The apostate Jews, natural unconverted man as those that have not the born-again Spirit of Christ.

They were guilty of turning things upside down or putting the cart before the horse. It's how the Catholic came up with a queen of heaven and men that must be worshipped as those who lord it over the faith of the pew sitters . ​

To them it's just imagine the kingdom of God is of this world and we do wrestle against flesh and blood......doctrines of the antichrists...the father of lies ​

Or like those in Jerimiah we refuse to get a under the authority of all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura ) But say ...we will certainly do whatsoever comes out of our own mouths as the things of men, seen. Or like who needs the bible as the source of Christian faith... just imagine the skies the limit​

​

Jeremiah 44:16-18 (KJV) As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine. ​

​

​