The Rapture

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The Olivet Discourse is meant to be understood as a multiple Prophecy. Jesus predicted that the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem would happen within the disciples generation and it did.

Brother tanakh,

I agree

He also predicted his second coming.

Here is the center of the conflict on this. The coming that is shown in Matt 24, Mk 13, Lk 21, is it a coming to destroy Jerusalem? Or is it a resurrection coming? Or both?

Paul says that Jesus came multiple times after His resurrection 1 Cor 15:3-8. But they were not resurrection comings. His coming described in the Matt 24, etc., passages is a coming, but not a resurrection coming.

The coming of salvation Heb 9:28, the time when we shall see Him and be like Him 1 Jn 3:2, has yet to come.

We are told how we can tell if a person is a true prophet and that is by seeing the things they predict coming true. Jesus and the OT Prophets used this method of predicting something to happen within the hearers lifetime as proof that all their predictions would occur as they said .Otherwise how would anyone know if they were true of false if they only had
some distant Prophecy to rely on.

The statue of Dan 2 shows a time of 1000's of years from Babylon onward.

We still look for the fulfillment of the resurrection made by the prophets and apostles 1000's of years ago.

The apostles knew that Jerusalem would be destroyed and that there would be a time after that, but they didn't know the length of the time periods in the years of men.

Always remember that the statue of Dan. 2 timeline must be in agreement with all other timelines considered.

The Book of Revelation is no different. It has a multiple application. The plagues caused by the four Horsemen follow
the same pattern as that of Jesus in Matthew and Luke.

Yes, I agree. The seals are showing the time period from the rejection of the kingdom by Israel until the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad., which is the 6/7th seals.

The 1-4 seals parallel the Matt 24, etc., passages, showing the same time period.

The 7 seals are not predictions at the time of the writing of the Revelation, but are confirmation of the prophecies by Jesus already fulfilled by the 70 ad destruction.

They are also the same plagues Moses warned Israel about if they disobeyed Gods Law.

The book was addressed to first century churches. If it was only relevant to the last generation before the end why would they bother to read any of it.

The 1/2 hour of silence between the seals and trumpets is showing a time that people didn't have any word from God about what was going to happen after the 70 ad scattering.

They knew that Jerusalem would fall and the people would be scattered, for a time, but no details about what would come after that. The Revelation tells that story with the trumpets, the 2W's, and the woman of Rev 12, as well as other places in the book.

Also within the book there are warnings that the time for events to happen are short. No amount of time bending and scripture twisting can avoid these plain warnings read by first century Christians who had the same sense of time passing as we do.

The trumpets tell the story from 70 ad approx., until the coming of salvation, when we see Him and we will be like Him.

How long the time periods were in the years of men, nobody would know until Jerusalem was restored, ending the times of the gentiles, 1967.

The Bible and Revelation in particular uses symbols to represent events and concepts God wants to convey.

The symbols are messages from Jesus to all, made in the (post) 70 ad time period. The meaning of the symbols are meant to have the same meaning to us, as they did to the those in the 1st century. That is why most symbols are identified through the scriptures.

Ignoring this ends up with a reader in a hopeless muddle. One of the methods is the use of hyperbole to emphasis the severity of Gods Judgement. Jesus uses this when he talks of future tribulation. Here are some other examples:

The Fall Of Edom

All the host of heaven shall rot away and the skies roll up like a scroll
All the host shall fall as leaves fall from a vine, like leaves falling from a fig tree
For my sword
has drunk its fill in the heavens behold it descends for judgement upon Edom
upon the people i have devoted for destruction

Isaiah 34:4-5

To Egypt

Son of man raise a lamentation over Pharaoh king of Egypt and say to him
When I blot you out I will cover the heavens and make their stars dark
I will cover the Sun with a cloud and the Moon shall not give its light
All the bright lights of heaven I will make dark over you and put
darkness on your land declares the Lord

Ezekiel 32:2,7-8

The fall of Babylon by the Medes

For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give
their light the Sun will be dark at its rising and the Moon will
not shed its light Therefore I will make the Heavens tremble
and the earth will be shaken out of its place at the wrath of the lord
of hosts in the day of his fierce anger

Isaiah 13:10,13

This is how the Prophets described judgement on various nations. The Universe didnt literally come
apart it just felt like it to those the judgement was aimed at. We use expressions in a similar way.
If someone says they had a broken heart would a surgeon find their Heart in bits if they were opened up?

Jesus said there would be Tribulation never seen before or will be again. Had he forgotten the Flood?
of course not. He was using the same mode of expression that the Prophets used. The whole point of all
this is to show how literalism distorts the true meaning of the text we read and the way we understand it.

Yes, The symbols represent entities and events, but the symbols themselves should not be taken as literal, as you have just shown.

 

[Endoscopy]

Brother tanakh,

I agree



Here is the center of the conflict on this. The coming that is shown in Matt 24, Mk 13, Lk 21, is it a coming to destroy Jerusalem? Or is it a resurrection coming? Or both?

Paul says that Jesus came multiple times after His resurrection 1 Cor 15:3-8. But they were not resurrection comings. His coming described in the Matt 24, etc., passages is a coming, but not a resurrection coming.

The coming of salvation Heb 9:28, the time when we shall see Him and be like Him 1 Jn 3:2, has yet to come.




The statue of Dan 2 shows a time of 1000's of years from Babylon onward.

We still look for the fulfillment of the resurrection made by the prophets and apostles 1000's of years ago.

The apostles knew that Jerusalem would be destroyed and that there would be a time after that, but they didn't know the length of the time periods in the years of men.

Always remember that the statue of Dan. 2 timeline must be in agreement with all other timelines considered.




Yes, I agree. The seals are showing the time period from the rejection of the kingdom by Israel until the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad., which is the 6/7th seals.

The 1-4 seals parallel the Matt 24, etc., passages, showing the same time period.

The 7 seals are not predictions at the time of the writing of the Revelation, but are confirmation of the prophecies by Jesus already fulfilled by the 70 ad destruction.






The 1/2 hour of silence between the seals and trumpets is showing a time that people didn't have any word from God about what was going to happen after the 70 ad scattering.

They knew that Jerusalem would fall and the people would be scattered, for a time, but no details about what would come after that. The Revelation tells that story with the trumpets, the 2W's, and the woman of Rev 12, as well as other places in the book.




The trumpets tell the story from 70 ad approx., until the coming of salvation, when we see Him and we will be like Him.

How long the time periods were in the years of men, nobody would know until Jerusalem was restored, ending the times of the gentiles, 1967.



The symbols are messages from Jesus to all, made in the (post) 70 ad time period. The meaning of the symbols are meant to have the same meaning to us, as they did to the those in the 1st century. That is why most symbols are identified through the scriptures.







Yes, The symbols represent entities and events, but the symbols themselves should not be taken as literal, as you have just shown.

I totally disagree with the 70AD concept of fulfilling the prophecies. The most signifant prophesy is Jesus describing his return at the time of the end.

Matthew 24 AMPC

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendor].
31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect (His chosen ones) from the four winds, [even] from one end of the universe to the other.
32 From the fig tree learn this lesson: as soon as its young shoots become soft and tender and it puts out its leaves, you know of a surety that summer is near.
33 So also when you see these signs, all taken together, coming to pass, you may know of a surety that He is near, at the very doors.
34 Truly I tell you, this generation (the whole multitude of people living at the same time, in a definite, given period) will not pass away till all these things taken together take place.
35 Sky and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

This hasn't happened. Trying to make it spirit world or in 70AD fails. The rapture hasn't happened and Jesus on the throne on Mt. Zion hasn't happened. These are not spirit world but real world happenings.

 

[abcdef]

A point of clarification about your post. Jesus said the law is in place until the heavens and earth disappear.

The Law died on the cross when the veil was torn and the new kingdom covenant began on Pentecost, but the prophecies of the Law and prophets would still be fulfilled.

It does not say that it would "remain in place" until then, it says that everything required in the Law and Prophets must take place to be fulfilled and that Jesus was here to fulfill them and cause them to be fulfilled.

Jesus brought the old covenant to an end when He died.

There wasn't a duel covenant that ran parallel to the new as shown in Galatians 3. (If you believe that, a SDA church is around the corner.)

The change actually is we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus.

No one was ever saved by keeping the Law.

Before the Law of Moses came, souls were saved by love, faith, and grace.

But when the Law came, souls were saved by love, faith, and grace.

Then in the new covenant, souls are saved by love, faith, and grace.

Has it really changed that much?

Thus we are freed from the penalty of the law through His sacrifice on the cross and resurrection.

The eternal death, yes.

Those not accepting his sacrifice will be judged by the law at judgement time.

Since those who are keeping the Law have rejected Jesus and His grace, they will be found lacking. Salvation does not come by the works of the Law of Moses.

Our faith in Jesus releases us from that judgement. A pastor I admired once told me he starts a sermon about the sacrifice with the resurrection and its meaning since if he starts at the cross he might not get to the meaning of the resurrection.

Matthew 5:13 to 20 NIV
Jesus saying he came to fulfill the law and the prophets.

Ok, you make a contract for 5 loads of gravel at 10 dollars a load. The man brings 5 loads of gravel and you pay the man 50 dollars. That fulfills the covenant that you made with the man, that ends the agreement.

The next year you go to the man and say I would please like 5 more loads of gravel at 10 dollars a load. But he says that the load of gravel is now 7 dollars a load. Then you might say that you have an agreement for 5 dollars a load.

But the man says that the previous agreement ended when he fulfilled his side of the covenant.

Jesus fulfilled God's side of the covenant on the cross. If you want your gravel, you will have to go into a new covenant with Jesus.

Salt and Light
13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

Jesus speaking to Israelites like us, Israelite to Israelite.

The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;

We still have the writings of the Israelite Law and Israelite prophets today, so they have not been abolished or disappeared.

I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

The power of the Law covenant was ended at the cross, when Jesus delivered the gravel, died.

18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Disappear? What does that mean to you? Disappear from all knowledge of men? I mean that the Laws are still readable today, so they still have not "disappeared" even to this day. Could it mean fulfilled? That is, everything must happen to meet the requirements on the Law and prophets?

So that when they are fulfilled, they disappear, as fulfilled?

19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kin

gdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Do you keep the commands of the Law? Have you set them aside? Do you teach others to keep the Law and the Prophets?

Or have you chosen the new covenant?

20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Love, faith, and grace....

 

[PlainWord]

Additional comments, I waswas interrupted.

First Daniel states it is a closed book until the end times. Revelation is written the same way so it too is closed.

The symbolism in these 2 books then is a deliberate method of closing the books until the end time events start happening.

Here is a wiki site about Greek verb tenses. It's a translators nightmare.
Greek verbs

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_verbs

Your rules are too simplistic concerning eschatology. Theologians have for centuries looking at the subject have come up with 4 possible Biblical views of eschatology. The closed symbolism of Daniel and Revelation insure only end times will open the books. It was done deliberately by God!!!

Why do some links work and others don't? Puzzling!!!

That's nice about the verb tenses in the Greek. What about in the Hebrew which is what Daniel was written in? Daniel does not say, "end times." He says, "later end of these" and "the time of the end." You say he meant the end of planet earth. I say he meant the end of Israel which happened in 70 AD. So who is correct?

When did sacrifices end? Have sacrifices ceased or are they still going on? Your theory requires sacrifices to begin again and then end again. If that's the case, why did Daniel jump over the next occasion of them ending?

Daniel 9 talks about HIS PEOPLE. It concludes with their consummation by fire. The next time their city was consumed by fire was 70 AD.

Dan 12:1 starts off talking only about Israel, "sons of thy people." In fact, "Thy people" is found twice in Dan 12:1. The time is an incredible time of distress. The next time since Daniel they endured an incredible time of distress was in the second century under Antiochus IV Ep. But he already covers this in Dan 8. The next time after that was 70 AD which was the end of his people for 1,900 years.

Now, let's look at 12:7:

And I hear the one clothed in linen, who [is] upon the waters of the flood, and he doth lift up his right hand and his left unto the heavens, and sweareth by Him who is living to the age, that, `After a time, times, and a half, and at the completion of the scattering of the power of the holy people, finished are all these.​

Notice the scattering of his people was the end of these things? This has to refer to the scattering of 70 AD because the first diaspora already occurred. Immediately upon hearing this Daniel asks:

And I have heard, and I do not understand, and I say, `O my lord, what [is] the latter end of these?'​

"Later end of these" Did you get that? Later end of when his people were scattered referring back to verse 7. It was 70 AD when His people scattered again. It was then that the 2nd temple was destroyed. The sacrifices stopped back then. Nothing indicates the end of planet earth was in focus!! Its all about Daniel's people and what would become of them at the end ~560 years later.

Let go of your long held beliefs and let scripture talk to you. Your view has Christ as a liar since He said He would return to that generation. He said that some of those standing there would see Him. He said they would not go through all the towns of Israel before He returned. They were told to wait, watch and be sober. In Revelation He repeatedly said He was coming quickly. Why not take Him at His word instead of jumping through all these hoops to try to explain the clear, plain word away?
​

"Finished are all these!!!" Revelation unlocks the sealed book, it doesn't contain another hidden message. All was revealed in Revelation.

​

 

[PlainWord]

The big picture of all of this is God's plan for His creation. All Biblical authors lived during the Law. Moses briefly told about the age before His and the disciples discussed briefly the age after theirs. Most of the Bible dealt with the age they were in, the Mosaic Age, over 90% I'd say. Thus the Mosaic Age coming to end was a big deal. You have next to nothing being devoted to it whereas I have a ton devoted to it.

Go back to the garden and the fall. Go back to the curse. Almost everyone thinks the curse was all about pain in pregnancy and thorns etc. But they skip over the really important part of the curse from Gen 3:

[SUP]19 [/SUP]

by the sweat of thy face thou dost eat bread till thy return unto the ground, for out of it hast thou been taken, for dust thou [art], and unto dust thou turnest back.'..[SUP]22 [/SUP]And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,'​

There is no more record of God talking to or being with Adam after this. Adam was thus condemned to death as in separation from God. This was the spiritual state of man until the Cross with only two exceptions, Enoch and Elijah.

Now ask yourself, when did/does this separation from God get repaired? When did/does the curse get lifted? Does it get lifted at the Cross to 70 AD (my view) or does it get lifted at some future to us return of Christ (Your view)?

​

Gal 3:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]for as many as are of works of law are under a curse, for it hath been written, `Cursed [is] every one who is not remaining in all things that have been written in the Book of the Law -- to do them,'
[SUP]11 [/SUP]and that in law no one is declared righteous with God, is evident, because `The righteous by faith shall live;'
[SUP]12 [/SUP]and the law is not by faith, but -- `The man who did them shall live in them.'
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ did redeem us from the curse of the law, having become for us a curse, for it hath been written, `Cursed is every one who is hanging on a tree,'
[SUP]14 [/SUP]that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith.

Christ lifted the curse. Peter tells us this in Act 3. They were living in the transition from the old age to the new age.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]and He may send Jesus Christ who before hath been preached to you,[SUP]21 [/SUP]whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive till times of a restitution of all things, of which God spake through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age.[SUP]22 [/SUP]`For Moses, indeed, unto the fathers said -- A prophet to you shall the Lord your God raise up out of your brethren, like to me; him shall ye hear in all things, as many as he may speak unto you;[SUP]23 [/SUP]and it shall be, every soul that may not hear that prophet shall be utterly destroyed out of the people;[SUP]24 [/SUP]and also all the prophets from Samuel and those following in order, as many as spake, did also foretell of these days.

You see, the prophets all told of the days they were in up to and including the destruction of 70 AD. There is nothing from the OT prophets after this. The people were destroyed in 70 AD and I have to believe there were few, if any, wicked Jews who lived much later than that. ​

[SUB][/SUB]​

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[MattforJesus]

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel did not understand what was told him but was told to go his way for he could not understand, but the people at the time of the end would be able to understand because many shall run to and fro, advanced travel, and knowledge shall be increased, advanced technology.

Now how much advanced travel, and advanced technology happened in 70 A.D.

But today with advanced travel, and advanced technology, the saints can see, and hear, and know, what the world is doing, and how they can come together as one to try to establish peace on earth, which they will rebel against God, and then He puts them down, and that is it for this sin business on earth.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The 4th beast is the Roman Empire, and ten horns come out of them, and the little horn comes from the ten horns.

If they say this applies to 70 A.D. it cannot be true, for if Jesus defeated them back then the saints would of possessed the kingdom, and all nations would of obeyed Jesus and the saints, which we know is not true, for the world was still rebellious and doing their own thing.

And also it states that the 4th beast shall devour the whole earth, tread it down, and break it in pieces.

And did the Roman Empire do that back in 70 A.D.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

If Jesus would of put them down in 70 A.D. then all nations would of obeyed Jesus and the saints from then on, and none would of been rebellious, for nobody would of recognized any god, or religious figure, but only Jesus, and the truth of God would of covered the whole earth, and everybody would of abided by that.

But we know that did not happen, for if they say Jesus went against the 4th beast, the ten horns, the little horn, antichrist, that is what would of happened back then in 70 A.D., and would be even today if people were still on earth.

But we know that did not happen.

But today we can see that it can happen in the future, for the Bible says that the Roman Empire does not lose their dominion until God puts them down, which they will come together, and any nation that has been taken over by a Caucasian nation, that will pull all nations together, and the world can be split in to ten sections with a leader in each section, and the New Age Christ will appear after the ten horns, and deceive the world and then God will put them down, and then the kingdom shall be given to the saints.

God warns us of the new age movement, and people that interpret the Bible according to evolution, and people can still evolve to be greater, which the new age movement is the future for this sinful world, which will happen at the latter times, which the latter times was not in 70 A.D., and the new age movement will lead the world to the beast kingdom, and the New Age Christ, the little horn, man of sin, the beast, and when they follow that kingdom then Jesus will defeat them and put them down.

Some people will believe a scripture applies to something giving them an improper foundation in which they try to fit scriptures in to that improper foundation, and then ignore all the overwhelming evidence against them drowning them out like a flood.

 

[Locutus]

Daniel was told to "seal the book" until the "time of the end" not the end of time - the "time of the end" was when Christ started quoting Daniel's prophecy.

The book of revelation was never in fact sealed as Christ told John:

Rev 22:10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near"

The "time is near" does not mean nearly two thousand years after John wrote the apocalypse.

 

[Endoscopy]

The Law died on the cross when the veil was torn and the new kingdom covenant began on Pentecost, but the prophecies of the Law and prophets would still be fulfilled.

It does not say that it would "remain in place" until then, it says that everything required in the Law and Prophets must take place to be fulfilled and that Jesus was here to fulfill them and cause them to be fulfilled.

Jesus brought the old covenant to an end when He died.

There wasn't a duel covenant that ran parallel to the new as shown in Galatians 3. (If you believe that, a SDA church is around the corner.)




No one was ever saved by keeping the Law.

Before the Law of Moses came, souls were saved by love, faith, and grace.

But when the Law came, souls were saved by love, faith, and grace.

Then in the new covenant, souls are saved by love, faith, and grace.

Has it really changed that much?




The eternal death, yes.




Since those who are keeping the Law have rejected Jesus and His grace, they will be found lacking. Salvation does not come by the works of the Law of Moses.









Ok, you make a contract for 5 loads of gravel at 10 dollars a load. The man brings 5 loads of gravel and you pay the man 50 dollars. That fulfills the covenant that you made with the man, that ends the agreement.

The next year you go to the man and say I would please like 5 more loads of gravel at 10 dollars a load. But he says that the load of gravel is now 7 dollars a load. Then you might say that you have an agreement for 5 dollars a load.

But the man says that the previous agreement ended when he fulfilled his side of the covenant.

Jesus fulfilled God's side of the covenant on the cross. If you want your gravel, you will have to go into a new covenant with Jesus.





Jesus speaking to Israelites like us, Israelite to Israelite.






We still have the writings of the Israelite Law and Israelite prophets today, so they have not been abolished or disappeared.





The power of the Law covenant was ended at the cross, when Jesus delivered the gravel, died.




Disappear? What does that mean to you? Disappear from all knowledge of men? I mean that the Laws are still readable today, so they still have not "disappeared" even to this day. Could it mean fulfilled? That is, everything must happen to meet the requirements on the Law and prophets?

So that when they are fulfilled, they disappear, as fulfilled?



Do you keep the commands of the Law? Have you set them aside? Do you teach others to keep the Law and the Prophets?

Or have you chosen the new covenant?




Love, faith, and grace....

Here is what Jesus said about the law!!! Argue with Him about it !!
Sin is transgression of the law!!
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus as our savior.
That removes the penalty of the law from us through Jesus being the unblemished Lamb of God taking on Himself our sins.
Those who reject Jesus will be judged by God on the laws they broke.

Matthew 5:13 to 20 NIV
Jesus saying he came to fulfill the law and the prophets.

Salt and Light
13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[PlainWord]

Matt,

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel did not understand what was told him but was told to go his way for he could not understand, but the people at the time of the end would be able to understand because many shall run to and fro, advanced travel, and knowledge shall be increased, advanced technology.

Now how much advanced travel, and advanced technology happened in 70 A.D.

But today with advanced travel, and advanced technology, the saints can see, and hear, and know, what the world is doing, and how they can come together as one to try to establish peace on earth, which they will rebel against God, and then He puts them down, and that is it for this sin business on earth.

Advance travel and technology were not what was being discussed in Dan 12. Knowledge that they were in the last days was the knowledge being discussed. There is no mention or hint of any technology of our times found anywhere in Daniel. Knowledge that the temple was to be destroyed and the city left desolate, that was the topic. Indeed Josephus makes this point several times that the wise knew what was about the happen but the wicked did not know.

The 4th beast is the Roman Empire, and ten horns come out of them, and the little horn comes from the ten horns.

If they say this applies to 70 A.D. it cannot be true, for if Jesus defeated them back then the saints would of possessed the kingdom, and all nations would of obeyed Jesus and the saints, which we know is not true, for the world was still rebellious and doing their own thing.​

Don't think of the saint's kingdom as an earthly kingdom as it came without observation. The 5th kingdom we believers posses is the Kingdom of Heaven and we posses it right now and forevermore.

Yes, the 4th beast was the Roman Empire. But do not think that the 10 horns (or Kings) were Roman Caesars or future Roman rulers. Revelation 17 gives us additional information about these 10 kings. I believe John wrote Revelation during the reign of Nero, shortly before the Jewish revolt of 66 AD for reasons I will explain at another time. According to Revelation 17, these 10 kings did not have authority as kings yet (at the time John wrote this), but will receive authority with the 4th beast, Rome. They aid and assist Rome in destroying the Harlot (Jerusalem) and they make war against the Lamb and the Lamb defeats them. Thus, they cannot be a succession of kings because Roman Caesars would die before the next took his place. These 10 kings had to all be alive at the same time and at the start of the Jewish revolt.

The term, "king" could also be "leader" rather than coronated royalty because you can only have one king ruling over a city/country at a time under normal circumstances. The Jewish revolt of 66-70 AD was anything but a normal time. They had killed and thrown out all Roman rule inside the city and Nero ordered several generals to put down the rebellion. So, who ruled the city during the rebellion? Josephus names them. They were the Jewish leaders of the rebellion:

1) Joseph b. Gorion

2) Ananus II

3) Jesus b. Sapphias

4) Eleazor ben Ananias

5) Niger

6) Joseph b. Simon

7) Manasseh

8) John the Essene

9) John b. Matthias

10) Josephus b. Matthias

These were the Jewish leaders in Israel from the beginning of the revolt, most died during the revolt, but note, an 11th horn would come up from among them. This horn would be different. This horn was different because it was Roman - Titus. Titus plucked off three of these horns. What many don't realize is these zealots did more to contribute to the destruction of their country than Rome did. They brought the furry of Rome upon them. They destroyed their food supply causing massive starvation. They waged war against their citizenry.
​

 

[tanakh]

I totally disagree with the 70AD concept of fulfilling the prophecies. The most signifant prophesy is Jesus describing his return at the time of the end.

Matthew 24 AMPC

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendor].
31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect (His chosen ones) from the four winds, [even] from one end of the universe to the other.
32 From the fig tree learn this lesson: as soon as its young shoots become soft and tender and it puts out its leaves, you know of a surety that summer is near.
33 So also when you see these signs, all taken together, coming to pass, you may know of a surety that He is near, at the very doors.
34 Truly I tell you, this generation (the whole multitude of people living at the same time, in a definite, given period) will not pass away till all these things taken together take place.
35 Sky and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

This hasn't happened. Trying to make it spirit world or in 70AD fails. The rapture hasn't happened and Jesus on the throne on Mt. Zion hasn't happened. These are not spirit world but real world happenings.

You can totally reject anything you like but it doesn't stop it being true. Check out Matthew 23. In fact check out all the gospels and see what Jesus says about the leadership of his generation. Also it goes against all credibility that Jesus would concentrate on his second coming that we are still waiting for after 2000 years and not give any hint of the destruction of the Temple and city along with the deaths of over a million Jews within the lifetimes of the Generation he addressed. In my post I said that Prophecies had multiple applications and that some passages were symbolic providing example proof texts. Your post appears to exemplify the very same literalist errors I was talking about.

 

[tanakh]

Brother tanakh,

I agree



Here is the center of the conflict on this. The coming that is shown in Matt 24, Mk 13, Lk 21, is it a coming to destroy Jerusalem? Or is it a resurrection coming? Or both?

Paul says that Jesus came multiple times after His resurrection 1 Cor 15:3-8. But they were not resurrection comings. His coming described in the Matt 24, etc., passages is a coming, but not a resurrection coming.

The coming of salvation Heb 9:28, the time when we shall see Him and be like Him 1 Jn 3:2, has yet to come.




The statue of Dan 2 shows a time of 1000's of years from Babylon onward.

We still look for the fulfillment of the resurrection made by the prophets and apostles 1000's of years ago.

The apostles knew that Jerusalem would be destroyed and that there would be a time after that, but they didn't know the length of the time periods in the years of men.

Always remember that the statue of Dan. 2 timeline must be in agreement with all other timelines considered.




Yes, I agree. The seals are showing the time period from the rejection of the kingdom by Israel until the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad., which is the 6/7th seals.

The 1-4 seals parallel the Matt 24, etc., passages, showing the same time period.

The 7 seals are not predictions at the time of the writing of the Revelation, but are confirmation of the prophecies by Jesus already fulfilled by the 70 ad destruction.






The 1/2 hour of silence between the seals and trumpets is showing a time that people didn't have any word from God about what was going to happen after the 70 ad scattering.

They knew that Jerusalem would fall and the people would be scattered, for a time, but no details about what would come after that. The Revelation tells that story with the trumpets, the 2W's, and the woman of Rev 12, as well as other places in the book.




The trumpets tell the story from 70 ad approx., until the coming of salvation, when we see Him and we will be like Him.

How long the time periods were in the years of men, nobody would know until Jerusalem was restored, ending the times of the gentiles, 1967.



The symbols are messages from Jesus to all, made in the (post) 70 ad time period. The meaning of the symbols are meant to have the same meaning to us, as they did to the those in the 1st century. That is why most symbols are identified through the scriptures.







Yes, The symbols represent entities and events, but the symbols themselves should not be taken as literal, as you have just shown.

The resurrection appearances in the Gospels happened before the ascension. My position regarding the last days and second coming doesnt completely follow any of the four main belief systems because I don't believe any of them have the full picture.
The advantage in this is that I can allow for new insights without having to defend a system that contains unsupportable elements in them.

The Jews didnt have to wait 1000 years for Daniels complete prophecy to start happening. The Medes conquered Babylon within a lifetime and allowed them to return.

 

[abcdef]

Brother Matt,

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel did not understand what was told him but was told to go his way for he could not understand, but the people at the time of the end would be able to understand because many shall run to and fro, advanced travel, and knowledge shall be increased, advanced technology.

Now how much advanced travel, and advanced technology happened in 70 A.D.

The knowledge that they are speaking about is spiritual knowledge. The revealing of Jesus, the kingdom, and salvation.

But today with advanced travel, and advanced technology, the saints can see, and hear, and know, what the world is doing, and how they can come together as one to try to establish peace on earth,

There will never be peace on this planet as long as there is flesh 1 Jn 2:16-17.

which they will rebel against God, and then He puts them down, and that is it for this sin business on earth.

At the end of the kingdom/church age, then judgment and eternity will begin Rev 20:8-9.

=========

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

The Roman Empire nation dominates Israel for the time period of the iron legs/toes shown in the statue in Daniel 2.

The whole earth is the people of Israel and the known world of Israel, not the planet. Remember when this was written, how big the known world of Israel was at that time.

--

Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

The Roman Empire nation becomes completely divided (476 ad). It still dominates the people of Israel, but is itself divided.

Rev 17:11, tells us that the little horn is actually one of the seven and is the eighth. Since these are nations that span 100's of years, the 7/8th horn can not be one singular person with a say 70 year life span, it must exist for centuries. It can only be Caesar and his successors the Bishops of Rome (Vatican).

The devouring of the 3 horns shows that the little horn has a new kingdom, 7 horns and the little/8th horn.

--

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Caesar is the authority and head of the Roman Empire. We are on Roman time to this day.

The 3 1/2 times are not years. They are showing the time from the destruction of Jerusalem until Israel is restored to Jerusalem 70 ad- 1967. Also known as the times of the gentiles.

--

Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

His dominion over the people of Israel. Consume Rome by conversion to the kingdom/church (the kingdom consumes the statue Dan. 2:44). The 8th head ends in perdition, eternal spiritual death Rev 17:11.

--

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The saints obtained the kingdom on Pentecost. People from every dominion/nation serve Him, not every person on planet earth becomes a Christian.

The 4th beast is the Roman Empire, and ten horns come out of them, and the little horn comes from the ten horns.

The Roman Empire divides into ten (symbolic of complete division) nations/kings. Rev 17:11 The little horn is one of the seven, but is also the 8th. So the leader spans centuries.

If they say this applies to 70 A.D. it cannot be true, for if Jesus defeated them back then the saints would of possessed the kingdom, and all nations would of obeyed Jesus and the saints, which we know is not true, for the world was still rebellious and doing their own thing.

The statue of Dan. 2 shows a time far beyond 70 ad. where the iron continues to dominate Israel. The birth of Jesus and the coming of the Pentecost kingdom/church would be placed on the statue a few inches after the iron began, when the Roman Empire invaded Israel.

The thought that this planet becomes sin free is contradicted by 1 Jn 2:16-17.

And also it states that the 4th beast shall devour the whole earth, tread it down, and break it in pieces.

The Roman Empire dominates Israel, not the planet.

And did the Roman Empire do that back in 70 A.D.

Yes, and they continued to dominate the people of Israel until 1967, when the horn/toes NATIONS ended their dominance, when Jerusalem was restored..

--

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Jesus is king now over the Pentecost kingdom of Israel/church.

The proof is that even during the mill period in Rev 20, there is still sin and rebellion. The thought that the planet will become a material garden of Eden is without merit.

The blessings shown during that time are only for those in the kingdom. The rest of the planet is in unbelieving sin.

--

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

The Holy mountain is now the kingdom/church as shown in Heb 12:22-24.

If Jesus would of put them down in 70 A.D. then all nations would of obeyed Jesus and the saints from then on, and none would of been rebellious, for nobody would of recognized any god, or religious figure, but only Jesus, and the truth of God would of covered the whole earth, and everybody would of abided by that.

That will never happen as long as there is flesh.

But we know that did not happen, for if they say Jesus went against the 4th beast, the ten horns, the little horn, antichrist, that is what would of happened back then in 70 A.D., and would be even today if people were still on earth.

But we know that did not happen.

We fight Rome with the gospel sword that comes out of the mouth of Jesus, consuming the Roman beast by conversion. The battle continues to this day.

But today we can see that it can happen in the future, for the Bible says that the Roman Empire does not lose their dominion until God puts them down,

The iron legs/toes have been here since the iron Roman invasion of Israel in 63 bc. Continuing without gaps.

Who was the iron 2000 years ago?

Who was the iron 1000 years ago?

Who was the iron 100 years ago?

Who is the iron nation right now?

which they will come together, and any nation that has been taken over by a Caucasian nation, that will pull all nations together, and the world can be split in to ten sections with a leader in each section, and the New Age Christ will appear after the ten horns, and deceive the world and then God will put them down, and then the kingdom shall be given to the saints.

The 8th head is one of the 7.

God warns us of the new age movement, and people that interpret the Bible according to evolution, and people can still evolve to be greater, which the new age movement is the future for this sinful world, which will happen at the latter times, which the latter times was not in 70 A.D., and the new age movement will lead the world to the beast kingdom, and the New Age Christ, the little horn, man of sin, the beast, and when they follow that kingdom then Jesus will defeat them and put them down.

New version of the old scene.

Some people will believe a scripture applies to something giving them an improper foundation in which they try to fit scriptures in to that improper foundation, and then ignore all the overwhelming evidence against them drowning them out like a flood.

That has been going on since the beginning.

 

[LW97]

The rapture maybe is not pre trib, but definitely pre wrath.

 

[PlainWord]

tanakh[/SIZE];3585083]

You can totally reject anything you like but it doesn't stop it being true. Check out Matthew 23. In fact check out all the gospels and see what Jesus says about the leadership of his generation. Also it goes against all credibility that Jesus would concentrate on his second coming that we are still waiting for after 2000 years and not give any hint of the destruction of the Temple and city along with the deaths of over a million Jews within the lifetimes of the Generation he addressed. In my post I said that Prophecies had multiple applications and that some passages were symbolic providing example proof texts. Your post appears to exemplify the very same literalist errors I was talking about.

Notice that Christ never separates 70 AD events from His second coming? They are always mentioned together as contemporaneous events. If 70 AD and His second coming were thousands of years apart, why doesn't He say so? Instead He gives every indication that He would return to THAT same generation. Some of those standing there would see Him, His disciples would not go through all the towns in Israel before He returned, etc. In Rev He said He was coming quickly. Since when is 2,000 years "quickly?" Does this bother you?

[SUP]27 [/SUP]for as the lightning doth come forth from the east, and doth appear unto the west, so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man;
[SUP]28 [/SUP]for wherever the carcase may be, there shall the eagles be gathered together.

What manner was His return visible? He compared it to lightning. The eagle was the symbol of Rome and we know there were a lot of dead carcasses there in 70 AD. So, LIGHTNING, SYMBOL FOR ROME AND MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF DEAD BODIES, are three clues Jesus associates with His presence.

What are the properties of lightening? Bright, illuminating, fast, short duration, energy. Hmmm. When God came in judgment in the OT He rode dark clouds accompanied by lightening. In Revelation we find thunder and lightning four times. Lightning proceeds from the throne (Rev 4:5 & 11:19) in heaven. Lightening is present right before the sounding of the first trumpet and with the final pouring of the bowls.

Roman historian Tacitus records lightning hitting the temple and lighting it up for all to see. He, along with Josephus, also records spirits flying about in the clouds. I call this more than a coincidence. When is the last time any of us saw spirits flying around in the sky?

The Histories (Tacitus)/Book 5:13​

Prodigies had occurred, which this nation, prone to superstition, but hating all religious rites, did not deem it lawful to expiate by offering and sacrifice. There had been seen hosts joining battle in the skies, the fiery gleam of arms, the temple illuminated by a sudden radiance from the clouds. The doors of the inner shrine were suddenly thrown open, and a voice of more than mortal tone was heard to cry that the Gods were departing. At the same instant there was a mighty stir as of departure. Some few put a fearful meaning on these events, but in most there was a firm persuasion, that in the ancient records of their priests was contained a prediction of how at this very time the East was to grow powerful, and rulers, coming from Judæa, were to acquire universal empire. These mysterious prophecies had pointed to Vespasian and Titus.​

​

 

[abcdef]

The resurrection appearances in the Gospels happened before the ascension. My position regarding the last days and second coming doesnt completely follow any of the four main belief systems because I don't believe any of them have the full picture.
The advantage in this is that I can allow for new insights without having to defend a system that contains unsupportable elements in them.

Yes. After the ascension Jesus appeared in His glory to Paul. It blinded Him. When Jesus comes at the resurrection coming, it will be in that blinding glory, except that we shall become like Him. The coming at the 70 ad dest was not a resurrection coming.

The Jews didnt have to wait 1000 years for Daniels complete prophecy to start happening. The Medes conquered Babylon within a lifetime and allowed them to return.

Exactly my point. The statue in Daniel 2 shows a time period that lasts at least well into the Roman Empire. The Med/Per Empire began soon after the prophecy was made, but the end of that Dan. 2 statue time period was 100's if not 1000's of years in the future.

In the same way, the times of the gentiles of Lk 21:24 began in 70 ad., but the end of those times was 1967. That was also the end of the toes of the statue in Dan. 2.

 

[Endoscopy]

The resurrection appearances in the Gospels happened before the ascension. My position regarding the last days and second coming doesnt completely follow any of the four main belief systems because I don't believe any of them have the full picture.
The advantage in this is that I can allow for new insights without having to defend a system that contains unsupportable elements in them.

The Jews didnt have to wait 1000 years for Daniels complete prophecy to start happening. The Medes conquered Babylon within a lifetime and allowed them to return.

The problem with the pretorist view is the following scriptures. First Jesus saying how he will return and second Isaiah stating where He will assume his throne literally on Mt. Zion in Jerusalem in the real world not the spirit world. The biggest problem with pretorism is absolutely nothing in prophecy states it will happen in the spirit world not the real world. Pretorism is just made up out of thin air.

Jesus prophecied all earth would see His return. Hasn't happened!!!

 

[Endoscopy]

That's nice about the verb tenses in the Greek. What about in the Hebrew which is what Daniel was written in? Daniel does not say, "end times." He says, "later end of these" and "the time of the end." You say he meant the end of planet earth. I say he meant the end of Israel which happened in 70 AD. So who is correct?

When did sacrifices end? Have sacrifices ceased or are they still going on? Your theory requires sacrifices to begin again and then end again. If that's the case, why did Daniel jump over the next occasion of them ending?

Daniel 9 talks about HIS PEOPLE. It concludes with their consummation by fire. The next time their city was consumed by fire was 70 AD.

Dan 12:1 starts off talking only about Israel, "sons of thy people." In fact, "Thy people" is found twice in Dan 12:1. The time is an incredible time of distress. The next time since Daniel they endured an incredible time of distress was in the second century under Antiochus IV Ep. But he already covers this in Dan 8. The next time after that was 70 AD which was the end of his people for 1,900 years.

Now, let's look at 12:7:

And I hear the one clothed in linen, who [is] upon the waters of the flood, and he doth lift up his right hand and his left unto the heavens, and sweareth by Him who is living to the age, that, `After a time, times, and a half, and at the completion of the scattering of the power of the holy people, finished are all these.​

Notice the scattering of his people was the end of these things? This has to refer to the scattering of 70 AD because the first diaspora already occurred. Immediately upon hearing this Daniel asks:

And I have heard, and I do not understand, and I say, `O my lord, what [is] the latter end of these?'​

"Later end of these" Did you get that? Later end of when his people were scattered referring back to verse 7. It was 70 AD when His people scattered again. It was then that the 2nd temple was destroyed. The sacrifices stopped back then. Nothing indicates the end of planet earth was in focus!! Its all about Daniel's people and what would become of them at the end ~560 years later.

Let go of your long held beliefs and let scripture talk to you. Your view has Christ as a liar since He said He would return to that generation. He said that some of those standing there would see Him. He said they would not go through all the towns of Israel before He returned. They were told to wait, watch and be sober. In Revelation He repeatedly said He was coming quickly. Why not take Him at His word instead of jumping through all these hoops to try to explain the clear, plain word away?
​

"Finished are all these!!!" Revelation unlocks the sealed book, it doesn't contain another hidden message. All was revealed in Revelation.

​

Here is the pertinent part of Daniel about the book being closed until end times. Try again.

Daniel 12 New International Version (NIV)
The End Times
1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

 

[Endoscopy]

Stupid 5 minute rule again
Events prophecied in Revelation about the tribulations occurring haven't happened. Real world events not Spirit world events. 1/3 of ALL mankind killed not just one area. The destruction of all life on earth if not stopped. Read this long section of Revelation chapters 6 through 11 at least. Devastation and miraculous events about the 2 witnesses. The whole world watching their bodies laying in the street for 3 1/2 days and rejoicing until God brings them back to life horrifying and causing great fear around the world. Then Jesus returns with all the earth watching and His angels create the rapture.

Real world events not spirit world events.

 

[Deade]

The problem with the pretorist view is the following scriptures. First Jesus saying how he will return and second Isaiah stating where He will assume his throne literally on Mt. Zion in Jerusalem in the real world not the spirit world. The biggest problem with pretorism is absolutely nothing in prophecy states it will happen in the spirit world not the real world. Pretorism is just made up out of thin air.

Jesus prophecied all earth would see His return. Hasn't happened!!!

Why do you even argue with these pretorists. They are so far off from anything logical. Let them argue with each other.

 

[PlainWord]

Here is the pertinent part of Daniel about the book being closed until end times. Try again.

Daniel 12 New International Version (NIV)
The End Times
1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

This is not the end of the planet, it's the future-to-Daniel end of Israel in 70 AD. Why do you stop at verse 4? Did the power of the holy people scatter, were the sacrifices stopped in the first century? Daniel asked about the latter end of these (sacrifices and scattering).

`After a time, times, and a half, and at the completion of the scattering of the power of the holy people, finished are all these.'
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And I have heard, and I do not understand, and I say, `O my lord, what [is] the latter end of these?'

Your futurist views are so full of holes it cannot stay afloat any longer.
​