The Rapture

[PlainWord]

Stupid 5 minute rule again
Events prophecied in Revelation about the tribulations occurring haven't happened. Real world events not Spirit world events. 1/3 of ALL mankind killed not just one area. The destruction of all life on earth if not stopped. Read this long section of Revelation chapters 6 through 11 at least. Devastation and miraculous events about the 2 witnesses. The whole world watching their bodies laying in the street for 3 1/2 days and rejoicing until God brings them back to life horrifying and causing great fear around the world. Then Jesus returns with all the earth watching and His angels create the rapture.

Real world events not spirit world events.

Correct, real world events happened in 70 AD, and Christ was there supervising it all. Show me one verse where a city, town or country outside of the Roman Empire is mentioned anywhere in the Bible. List me one south of the equator, or in the Americas. The "world" was the known world as in Roman Empire which is where they lived and where the disciples stayed with none venturing outside the Roman Empire.

I already proved to you that "all mankind" meant "all Jews" and I showed you the passage in the OT that proves it. Everything in those passages in Rev you cite dealt with the destruction of Israel and their invaders, the Roman forces. ALL OF IT. None of it is future to us. All of the seals, trumpets and bowls are done, over, caput. Nothing is left to do.

 

[PlainWord]

Why do you even argue with these pretorists. They are so far off from anything logical. Let them argue with each other.

Have you ever opened a history book? Have you read Josephus, Tacitus and the earliest of the church writers? Perhaps you should before your spout off showing your complete ignorance.

 

[PlainWord]

[SUP]23 [/SUP]

`Thus he said: The fourth beast is the fourth kingdom in the earth, that is diverse from all kingdoms, and it consumeth all the earth, and treadeth it down, and breaketh it small.

Virtually every scholar agrees, the fourth beast of Dan 7 was the Roman Empire. Did Rome consume the entire planet Earth or just the known world?

Rev 17

[SUP]9 [/SUP]`Here [is] the mind that is having wisdom; the seven heads are seven mountains, upon which the woman doth sit,​

[SUP]10 [/SUP]and there are seven kings, the five did fall, and the one is, the other did not yet come, and when he may come, it behoveth him to remain a little time.
[SUP]11[/SUP] and the beast that was, and is not, he also is eighth, and out of the seven he is, and to destruction he doth go away.

Rome famously sits on 7 hills (mountains). Who were the 7 kings, 5 which passed, 1 is, one to come? If we understand that Daniel was speaking of 4 beasts which would reign over Israel from his time forward; Babylon, Medes and Persians, Greece then finally Rome, all we need to do is count the Roman kings who ruled over Israel. Israel came under Roman rule in 63 BC:

1. Julius Caesar 60 BC to 44 BC

Civil war followed until 27 BC

2. Augustus Caesar 27 BC to 14 AD
3. Tiberius Caesar 14 AD to 37 AD
4. Caligula Caesar 37 AD to 41 AD
5. Claudius Caesar 41 AD to 54 AD

These were the 5 kings which had fallen.

6. Nero 54 AD to 68 AD (The king which was). According to the Syriac Apocalypse, Nero was the one who exiled John thus John wrote Revelation sometime during Nero's reign, most likely between 64 and 66 AD.

The next three so-called kings; Galba, Ortho and Vitellius reigned over parts of Rome during its 18 month civil war. None were confirmed by the Senate and each successor had a hand in the death of his predecessor. This is the period where the throne of the beast went dark. None of these kings count towards the 7 kings of Rev 17 because none got control of the empire.

7. Vespasian (the king to come) 69-79 AD. It was under his reign that Jerusalem fell. The 8th was Titus and he did destruction of Israel and he was named Caesar at the same time as his father although he would not take over the crown until his father died. Vespasian and Titus in fact they shared one title, one name:

TITVS FLAVIVS CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVGVSTVS​

​

They were an unholy father-son ruling duo in direct opposition to our Father and Son. Titus opposed God and stood in the temple and was worshipped by his men as God. Unless Rome again becomes the dominant world power (highly unlikely) and 7 more kings rule over Israel as gods, I think we can safely say Revelation 17 is over and if it's over then everything that happened before is over also. Sorry, End and your sidekick Deade, but its game, set, match!!​

 

[Endoscopy]

This is not the end of the planet, it's the future-to-Daniel end of Israel in 70 AD. Why do you stop at verse 4? Did the power of the holy people scatter, were the sacrifices stopped in the first century? Daniel asked about the latter end of these (sacrifices and scattering).

`After a time, times, and a half, and at the completion of the scattering of the power of the holy people, finished are all these.'
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And I have heard, and I do not understand, and I say, `O my lord, what [is] the latter end of these?'

Your futurist views are so full of holes it cannot stay afloat any longer.
​

It is obvious to the casual observer that you are not understanding phrase end times. It is just prior to the return of Jesus and will bebe preceeded by the tribulations when in one of them 1/3 of ALL mankind will be killed. Don't seem to remember that happening!!

 

[Endoscopy]

Addendum
Remember that all eschatological scripture has to be considered as a whole. Therefore the accusation of reading beyond the quoted scripture falls flat considering I mentioned events from Revelation.

 

[tourist]

It is obvious to the casual observer that you are not understanding phrase end times. It is just prior to the return of Jesus and will bebe preceeded by the tribulations when in one of them 1/3 of ALL mankind will be killed. Don't seem to remember that happening!!

You are absolutely on target.

Before the end comes Israel must build the temple and sign a 7 year treaty with an entity that will guarantee their safety. Also, as you pointed out 1/3 of the population is wiped out in a single event or rapidly escalating series of events. The only thing that happened in 70 AD was Jerusalem getting destroyed. This was hardly earth shattering and while biblically significant as far as prophesy is concerned about the nation of Israel it was not the end times as written by John in Revelation many years after the destruction of this city.

The book of Revelation is a lot more than just a history lesson and most of what was written and also the prophecy of Daniel and other prophets have yet to take place. God told Daniel to rest until the end times when the prophecies will be fully revealed in detail on what is to happen.

He is still resting.

 

[Endoscopy]

Correct, real world events happened in 70 AD, and Christ was there supervising it all. Show me one verse where a city, town or country outside of the Roman Empire is mentioned anywhere in the Bible. List me one south of the equator, or in the Americas. The "world" was the known world as in Roman Empire which is where they lived and where the disciples stayed with none venturing outside the Roman Empire.

I already proved to you that "all mankind" meant "all Jews" and I showed you the passage in the OT that proves it. Everything in those passages in Rev you cite dealt with the destruction of Israel and their invaders, the Roman forces. ALL OF IT. None of it is future to us. All of the seals, trumpets and bowls are done, over, caput. Nothing is left to do.

Jesus stated that on his return the whole earth will see it and mourn. Is that outside Israel enough. When did 1/3 of ALL mankind die not just in Israel?? Get the point I totally reject your view of eschatology since it doesn't fit the scripture in Daniel and Revelation!!

 

[Endoscopy]

You are absolutely on target.

Before the end comes Israel must build the temple and sign a 7 year treaty with an entity that will guarantee their safety. Also, as you pointed out 1/3 of the population is wiped out in a single event or rapidly escalating series of events. The only thing that happened in 70 AD was Jerusalem getting destroyed. This was hardly earth shattering and while biblically significant as far as prophesy is concerned about the nation of Israel it was not the end times as written by John in Revelation many years after the destruction of this city.

The book of Revelation is a lot more than just a history lesson and most of what was written and also the prophecy of Daniel and other prophets have yet to take place. God told Daniel to rest until the end times when the prophecies will be fully revealed in detail on what is to happen.

He is still resting.

Absolutely correct. The pretorist view ignores the prophecied events and the 70AD ignores them also. They twist the scripture into meaning 70AD was the end times when too many prophecies never happened. They create out of thin air somehow the events in 70AD had Jesus returning for the whole earth to see meaning only Israel. They ignore if Jesus had sat on his throne on Mt. Zion the Romans would have been kicked out with most if not all dead.

 

[shrume]

You are absolutely on target.

Before the end comes Israel must build the temple and sign a 7 year treaty with an entity that will guarantee their safety. Also, as you pointed out 1/3 of the population is wiped out in a single event or rapidly escalating series of events. The only thing that happened in 70 AD was Jerusalem getting destroyed. This was hardly earth shattering and while biblically significant as far as prophesy is concerned about the nation of Israel it was not the end times as written by John in Revelation many years after the destruction of this city.

The book of Revelation is a lot more than just a history lesson and most of what was written and also the prophecy of Daniel and other prophets have yet to take place. God told Daniel to rest until the end times when the prophecies will be fully revealed in detail on what is to happen.

He is still resting.

I believe that nearly the entire book of Revelation is still future. We have not seen the seals, trumpet, thunder, or bowl judgments yet, and we certainly have not seen Christ returning in glory. We are not in the kingdom yet.

I think Preterists are in for a huge shock.

 

[Endoscopy]

I believe that nearly the entire book of Revelation is still future. We have not seen the seals, trumpet, thunder, or bowl judgments yet, and we certainly have not seen Christ returning in glory. We are not in the kingdom yet.

I think Preterists are in for a huge shock.

ROFL
I totally agree!! Too many of the prophecies about the tribulation haven't happened including the rapture to keep Christians out of it since it is punishment for those rejecting Jesus.

 

[PlainWord]

It is obvious to the casual observer that you are not understanding phrase end times. It is just prior to the return of Jesus and will bebe preceeded by the tribulations when in one of them 1/3 of ALL mankind will be killed. Don't seem to remember that happening!!

Everything just goes around and around in a big circle with you. I already explained all of this to you and indeed it did happen. Rome killed 1/3 of the Jews in 70 AD and that was the message. Christ presence returned at the end of that age to His generation and all the Jews saw, just as He said they would.

 

[tourist]

Everything just goes around and around in a big circle with you. I already explained all of this to you and indeed it did happen. Rome killed 1/3 of the Jews in 70 AD and that was the message. Christ presence returned at the end of that age to His generation and all the Jews saw, just as He said they would.

In Revelation 9:18 it specifically states that 1/3 of 'mankind' was killed and not just 1/3 of the Jews which are a very small minority in regards to the total population of the earth. The Jews may have been dispersed through-out the world as a result of the events of 70 AD but clearly there is a tremendous difference between the killing of 1/3 of the Jews verses 1/3 of mankind.

If the events of Revelation have already been fulfilled than what's the point of even reading it? Another thing, when Christ returns the whole world will witness it. The bible says that Jesus comes back, it does not say that only His 'presence' comes back.

Seems to me like you are wresting scripture to suit your narrative in regards to what you personally believe.

 

[tourist]

I believe that nearly the entire book of Revelation is still future. We have not seen the seals, trumpet, thunder, or bowl judgments yet, and we certainly have not seen Christ returning in glory. We are not in the kingdom yet.

I think Preterists are in for a huge shock.

I believe as you believe because it is spiritual truth. If we are currently living in Christ's kingdom then where exactly is He reigning from? If this is the kingdom then it's a real crappy one and poorly mismanaged.

 

[Endoscopy]

Everything just goes around and around in a big circle with you. I already explained all of this to you and indeed it did happen. Rome killed 1/3 of the Jews in 70 AD and that was the message. Christ presence returned at the end of that age to His generation and all the Jews saw, just as He said they would.

You are stupidly asserting that the end times was in 70AD. Try again!!

 

[tanakh]

The problem with the pretorist view is the following scriptures. First Jesus saying how he will return and second Isaiah stating where He will assume his throne literally on Mt. Zion in Jerusalem in the real world not the spirit world. The biggest problem with pretorism is absolutely nothing in prophecy states it will happen in the spirit world not the real world. Pretorism is just made up out of thin air.

Jesus prophecied all earth would see His return. Hasn't happened!!!

The problem with the full Preterist view is in that they confuse Christs judgement on Israel with the second coming. Christ came in AD70 in the same way that God came to Egypt, Sodom and Babylon in the OT using armies and natural disasters.
The Prophets used symbolic language to warn of these Judgments and so did Christ. The Olivet discourse in Matthew and Luke have a multiple application. It seems that neither you or the Full Preterists on site can seem to get this. Both groups seem to have one track minds and a tunnel vision.

 

[preston39]

[SUP]23 [/SUP]

`Thus he said: The fourth beast is the fourth kingdom in the earth, that is diverse from all kingdoms, and it consumeth all the earth, and treadeth it down, and breaketh it small.

Virtually every scholar agrees, the fourth beast of Dan 7 was the Roman Empire. Did Rome consume the entire planet Earth or just the known world?

Rev 17

[SUP]9 [/SUP]`Here [is] the mind that is having wisdom; the seven heads are seven mountains, upon which the woman doth sit,​

[SUP]10 [/SUP]and there are seven kings, the five did fall, and the one is, the other did not yet come, and when he may come, it behoveth him to remain a little time.
[SUP]11[/SUP] and the beast that was, and is not, he also is eighth, and out of the seven he is, and to destruction he doth go away.

Rome famously sits on 7 hills (mountains). Who were the 7 kings, 5 which passed, 1 is, one to come? If we understand that Daniel was speaking of 4 beasts which would reign over Israel from his time forward; Babylon, Medes and Persians, Greece then finally Rome, all we need to do is count the Roman kings who ruled over Israel. Israel came under Roman rule in 63 BC:

1. Julius Caesar 60 BC to 44 BC

Civil war followed until 27 BC

2. Augustus Caesar 27 BC to 14 AD
3. Tiberius Caesar 14 AD to 37 AD
4. Caligula Caesar 37 AD to 41 AD
5. Claudius Caesar 41 AD to 54 AD

These were the 5 kings which had fallen.

6. Nero 54 AD to 68 AD (The king which was). According to the Syriac Apocalypse, Nero was the one who exiled John thus John wrote Revelation sometime during Nero's reign, most likely between 64 and 66 AD.

The next three so-called kings; Galba, Ortho and Vitellius reigned over parts of Rome during its 18 month civil war. None were confirmed by the Senate and each successor had a hand in the death of his predecessor. This is the period where the throne of the beast went dark. None of these kings count towards the 7 kings of Rev 17 because none got control of the empire.

7. Vespasian (the king to come) 69-79 AD. It was under his reign that Jerusalem fell. The 8th was Titus and he did destruction of Israel and he was named Caesar at the same time as his father although he would not take over the crown until his father died. Vespasian and Titus in fact they shared one title, one name:

TITVS FLAVIVS CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVGVSTVS​

​

They were an unholy father-son ruling duo in direct opposition to our Father and Son. Titus opposed God and stood in the temple and was worshipped by his men as God. Unless Rome again becomes the dominant world power (highly unlikely) and 7 more kings rule over Israel as gods, I think we can safely say Revelation 17 is over and if it's over then everything that happened before is over also. Sorry, End and your sidekick Deade, but its game, set, match!!​

P...,

Never have I heard your interpretation of The Bible.

I must question the entire conclusion you present and have never heard another with the same conclusion;

What bible do you use?

Today, that is critical since we have hundreds of editions...many of which I have not wasted the time to familiarize myself with, and don't plan to.

 

[PlainWord]

The problem with the full Preterist view is in that they confuse Christs judgement on Israel with the second coming. Christ came in AD70 in the same way that God came to Egypt, Sodom and Babylon in the OT using armies and natural disasters.
The Prophets used symbolic language to warn of these Judgments and so did Christ. The Olivet discourse in Matthew and Luke have a multiple application. It seems that neither you or the Full Preterists on site can seem to get this. Both groups seem to have one track minds and a tunnel vision.

I love and respect you brother, hope you know that? Let me see if I understand you, you agree that the presence of Christ returned in 70 AD but that He will come again in our future? Did I get that right? So, you see a dual fulfillment? What tells you that it's dual?

FYI, I totally think God or Christ's presence could return again to punish the wicked in our future. That has been His pattern. When He's had enough, he's had enough. It says in Rev 20 He will send fire down to devour those who came against his beloved city, which I equate to the church, but could be modern Jerusalem.

 

[PlainWord]

P...,

Never have I heard your interpretation of The Bible.

I must question the entire conclusion you present and have never heard another with the same conclusion;

What bible do you use?

Today, that is critical since we have hundreds of editions...many of which I have not wasted the time to familiarize myself with, and don't plan to.

I use the NKJV for normal daily reading, KJV or YLT if I want to dig deeper. Yes, that's the problem, most teachers (pastors) have learned in several institutions from futurist dispensationalists. This is why most of the teaching today is totally messed up. Did you know that none of the early church writers from the 2-3 centuries ever said a word about Christ's second coming. Heck, that's all the disciples could talk about once Jesus left. Why do you think that is? It's because He returned and they all knew it for 200 years.

When you have multiple contemporary historians, Tacitus and Josephus writing about chariots and phantom solders in armor in the sky circling the cities of Israel, what do you conclude about that?

Christ said He was returning to THAT generation, to those standing there, before they have gone through all the towns of Israel. Was He wrong? Also, the Greek says it's His presence which returns, not Him as a visible man.

​

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[PlainWord]

Hey all, I'm heading to Hawaii for a much needed break. Will try to put out the volcano while there. Will see you all on the flip side.

 

[PlainWord]

You are stupidly asserting that the end times was in 70AD. Try again!!

It doesn't say "end times." If our country was ending next week, would we be in our "end times?" So, thus they were too.

and he saith to the one clothed in linen, who [is] upon the waters of the flood, `Till when [is] the end of these wonders?'​

End of those wonders, not the planet. Does it say planet??? Learn the OT symbols. I can't stress that enough. ​

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