THE RAPTURE

[Quasar92]

He is simply telling you what the Bible says. You can maintain that the Bible contradicts itself if you want to. You can bang your head against a brick wall if you want to. We can't stop you.

It seems to bother some when truth is simple and straightforward. They find strange comfort in distortion and convolution.

Glorification happens at the rapture. Resurrection does not exclude this any more than the living bodies do.

Very well said, bro. May I provide the teachings of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, as Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, provided us in the following:

[h=2]The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church[/h]


Beginning with Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

A look at 1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

From: http://www.raptureready.com/featured...onians2_3.html

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!


The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

[h=2]Scriptural proof for the pre-tribrapture of the Church:[/h]



The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar92

 

[tanakh]

Remember that religion is one of Satan’s hidden dynasties. He loves to plant false doctrines, which twist Scripture, in Christian churches.


If you believe the rapture, you may find yourself among the following group of deceived Christians when Christ returns.


And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. Revelation 6:16


The above folks are so ashamed because they’ve been worshiping the wrong Christ.


It seems that the rapture people have forgotten how to count. The think the 7th trump comes before 6th ... that the real Christ comes before the false one comes. Christ returns at the 7th trump, not the 6th trump;


At the 6th seal, 6th trump, 6th vial, Michael will boot satan, playing his role as the antichrist (instead of Christ in the Greek), from heaven to earth (Revelation Chapter 12:6-9). Keep in mind that Revelation is a Prophetic book making the word SAW into the futuristic word "will" fall etc.


Christ also gave you all 7 seals & trumps in Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24. Have you read them with understanding?


Before 1830, you can find no mention of the Rapture Doctrine. That alone ought to send up a red flag. In fact, the word "rapture" is not in the Bible. So, where did this false doctrine come from? In 1830, Margaret MacDonald had an evil revelation on her sick bed, supposedly from God, in which she was shown what would become "The Rapture Of The Church", among other names.


And, from The Incredible Cover-up by Dave Macpherson, Appendix A, you'll read:


"I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light." - Margaret MacDonald (Spring of 1830)


MacDonald's revelation would have probably died with her; however, two preachers grabbed it, cleaned it up, and presented it to Christendom. Today, you'll hear many pastors promoting that false doctrine from pulpits.

I don't believe in a Pre Trib Rapture. If we belong to Christ it makes no difference whether there is one or not in any case.
Our Salvation does not depend on believing it, although one might think so if you go by the amount of ink and hostility directed at those who do not believe in it.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I don't believe in a Pre Trib Rapture. If we belong to Christ it makes no difference whether there is one or not in any case.
Our Salvation does not depend on believing it, although one might think so if you go by the amount of ink and hostility directed at those who do not believe in it.

Hello Tanakh,

It is very important that believers are watching for the Lord's imminent appearing to gather His church, as well as taking a stand on understanding that the church cannot go through God's wrath. And that because his words says that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because the wrath that we deserve was laid on Jesus. That said, it is important to understand what that wrath entails and who it will be directed to. Because Jesus took upon himself the wrath that we deserve, it would be a disgrace to Him for His church to be exposed to it. As I have said in so many posts, this stems from not understanding the severity and the purpose of God's coming wrath.

The Lord is not going to build His church and then send his bride through His wrath! Most people don't understand what is going to come upon this earth.

"Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning,like servants waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him.It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. Truly I tell you, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them.It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the middle of the night or toward daybreak.But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into.You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”

 

[Ahwatukee]

Scriptural proof for the pre-tribrapture of the Church:





The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.
Quasar92

Hello Quasar92,

I think that there is also an underlying problem in that, for those who believe that the gathering of the church is going to take place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, they are not understanding that the Lord already took upon himself the wrath that we deserve. Therefore, to believe that believers are gathered at the end of the age and therefore will go through God's wrath, they are not truly understanding what the Lord's sacrifice entails. It would be a slap in Jesus' face to have taken upon himself the wrath that we deserve and then for us to go through His wrath anyway.

As I keep saying, this stems from not understanding that the gathering of the church is a separate event from the Lord's return at the end of the age. The other issue is that many do not understand the severity of God's wrath and who is going to be on this earth to receive it. It certainly wouldn't be directed towards those who have already received Christ and have repented.

 

[tanakh]

My last Post was aimed at the Pre Trib Rapture believers. According to them there are no signs to look out or prepare for.
They could be zapped away at any moment. I could have said a lot more but I have already done so in other posts and its like flogging a dead horse anyway because Tribulation dodging has a wide appeal

 

[Ahwatukee]

My last Post was aimed at the Pre Trib Rapture believers. According to them there are no signs to look out or prepare for.
They could be zapped away at any moment. I could have said a lot more but I have already done so in other posts and its like flogging a dead horse anyway because Tribulation dodging has a wide appeal

Can you name any sign that is to take place prior to the Lord's coming to gather the church?

 

[PrynceNY]

Though some criticise the Pre-Trib rapture, many people have been given visions of people being raptured before the tribulation then afterwards all hell broke loose on earth.

 

[tanakh]

If the Pre trib Rapture position is true it means that all the passages giving warning to the Church about the events of the tribulation are a waste of space because the Church wont be there to see it. So the Church has spent the past 2000 years preparing for a tribulation that they wont be around to experience.

 

[Ahwatukee]

If the Pre trib Rapture position is true it means that all the passages giving warning to the Church about the events of the tribulation are a waste of space because the Church wont be there to see it. So the Church has spent the past 2000 years preparing for a tribulation that they wont be around to experience.

What about those who come to Christ after the gathering of the church and who will be here during that time of wrath? I believe that there will be many who will remember what they heard or were told and when they actually see that the church has been removed from the earth, then they will turn to the word of God for the answers. The warning is not to the church, but to those who will be on earth during that time. Also, I don't know what you mean by "preparing for tribulation" because there is nothing to prepare for, except for continuing in faith for every generation up until that event takes place. The preparation for the believer is watching for and being ready for the Lord's imminent return in fulfillment of John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-17.

 

[tanakh]

What about those who come to Christ after the gathering of the church and who will be here during that time of wrath? I believe that there will be many who will remember what they heard or were told and when they actually see that the church has been removed from the earth, then they will turn to the word of God for the answers. The warning is not to the church, but to those who will be on earth during that time. Also, I don't know what you mean by "preparing for tribulation" because there is nothing to prepare for, except for continuing in faith for every generation up until that event takes place. The preparation for the believer is watching for and being ready for the Lord's imminent return in fulfillment of John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-17.

I understand your position on the rapture but I am not addressing the Pre Wrath position. I am speaking of those who do not believe they will go through any of the seven year tribulation it is that position in particular that I have an issue with.

 

[PlainWord]

If the Pre trib Rapture position is true it means that all the passages giving warning to the Church about the events of the tribulation are a waste of space because the Church wont be there to see it. So the Church has spent the past 2000 years preparing for a tribulation that they wont be around to experience.

Plus there is the clear teaching that the Great Tribulation only happens to Israel. Otherwise, why are only those in Judea warned to flee? In both Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Jesus tells us that when the Abomination of Desolation is seen then those in Judea are told to flee fast. In Luke the time to flee is when they see Jerusalem surrounded by armies. So, we have three witness passages, all of which point to the Great Tribulation being only in Israel.

Cross reference to Jer 5 and we see there is a "time of Jacob's Trouble." Cross reference to Eze 38-39 and we see Israel comes under a massive attack by various Islamic countries (and possibly Russia). We see the same thing in Joel 1 and Zec 13 and other places.

So, if the Great Tribulation only takes place in Israel, why does the Church have to be removed before it???

The other thing that baffles me about the pre-trib position is this notion that Daniel's 70th week is this world-wide Great Tribulation when the angel tells Daniel that the 70 weeks applied only to his people and his holy city. So even if Daniel's 70th week was the GT (which it isn't) the Church doesn't need to worry about it either.

 

[PlainWord]

I understand your position on the rapture but I am not addressing the Pre Wrath position. I am speaking of those who do not believe they will go through any of the seven year tribulation it is that position in particular that I have an issue with.

Where is this 7 year Great Tribulation coming from? I know, Dan 9:27. But this is just wrong. Dan 9:27 ended at the Cross.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease...

By becoming the sacrifice for the world Christ ended the need for animal sacrifices. Thus, Christ caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease in the middle of the 70th week.

...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate...

Because of their many abominable sins, Christ will make the temple desolate which he allows Titus (the Prince to come) to do in AD 70.

...even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

We see that the Temple will remain desolate (destroyed) all the way and until the Wrath (consuming fire) is poured out on the "desolate" (Muslims worshiping on the mount).

So, how long does the Great Tribulation of Israel really last? Just 45 days!! But, these days are cut short as Jesus tells us.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

The first thing to happen is the daily prayers are taken away. The word, "sacrifice" is in italics meaning it is not in the original text. Daniel prayed daily. The Jews pray daily. So it will be the daily prayers at the Wailing Wall which are taken away. 1,290 days later, the Abomination of Desolation is set up which starts the Great Tribulation. At day 1,335 those who are still alive having survived the massive attack will see their Messiah coming to the rescue.

Let's face it, an all out attack by overwhelming Islamic forces against tiny Israel could never last 7 years. The last battle in 1967 lasted just 6 days. But this time the Muslims are going to bring an overwhelming coalition of forces from various countries probably in the tens of millions from the north, from Iran, from Libya and Ethiopia. Israel puts up a good fight but 2/3 of her population are killed (according to Zec 13) before the Lord comes to rescue her in the "Day of the Lord."

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

The "sanctuary fortress" was the wall that went around the Temple complex to protect it. Jesus does not call it the "temple" but rather He calls it "the holy place.” The holiest place where Jews come to pray which was also part of the old fortress, the only part not destroyed by Titus, is the Wailing Wall.

Putting it all together, we can assume that the Muslims (most likely the Palestinians) do something to desecrate the Wailing Wall so that the Jews will not pray there anymore. 1,290 days later, the Abomination which causes the Jews to flee is set up at the Wailing Wall. This marks the start of the Great Tribulation.

I hope this helps those confused about things, especially those thinking there will be a 7 year long GT.

 

[popeye]

[h=2]Scriptural proof for the pre-tribrapture

I noticed you left out the dead rise first in 1thes 4.

I don't know if you realize the quandary in making the resurrection post trib. Post wrath for you wrath guys.

If the graves open in rev 20, where you seem to place that event,then we have the main harvest,and the 3 harvests in rev 14 PRECEDING the dead raised.

Not trying to make you mad but not going to wink at that quandary either

 

[tanakh]

Can you name any sign that is to take place prior to the Lord's coming to gather the church?

That is precisely my point. There is no sign according to Pre Tribbers so why is there so many passages covering the last seven years if the Church is to be zapped before anything nasty happens? Also why hasn't it happened if there is nothing else that is supposed to take place before the Pre Trib rapture? According to this view the very last sign was the creation of Israel in 1948 so the rapture could have happened at any time during the last sixty eight years but it hasnt.

 

[Quasar92]

I don't believe in a Pre Trib Rapture. If we belong to Christ it makes no difference whether there is one or not in any case.
Our Salvation does not depend on believing it, although one might think so if you go by the amount of ink and hostility directed at those who do not believe in it.

Jesus Matthew, Luke, John and Paul taught the pre-rib rapture o he Church, as posted in#501. I challenge you to refute by Scripture any part of it, or the views you have are false.

During Jesus first advent, He made it very clear His ministry was exclusively addressed to Israel, according to Mt.10:5-6 and 15:24. The Church did not exist, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3. That pertains to His Olivet discourse in Mt.24, Mk.13 and in Lk.21, where reference is to the great tribulation Israel is decreed to go through, according to Jacob's trouble in Jer.30:7 and the 70th week of Daniel, in 9:27. It has nothing whatever to do with the Church.

Tell me why, when Jesus raises each one of us who believe in Him to heaven, immediately following our physical death, to heaven, according to 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7, He would leave any of us who belong to Him, to go through the tribulation? Review 1 Thess.1:10 and 5:9. Incidentally, the rapture of the Church has no more to do with our salvation than does the Trinity, none at all.


Quasar92

 

[Ahwatukee]

That is precisely my point. There is no sign according to Pre Tribbers so why is there so many passages covering the last seven years if the Church is to be zapped before anything nasty happens? Also why hasn't it happened if there is nothing else that is supposed to take place before the Pre Trib rapture? According to this view the very last sign was the creation of Israel in 1948 so the rapture could have happened at any time during the last sixty eight years but it hasnt.

It will take place once the building of the church has been completed. The word of God regarding these end time events will also be for those who will be living on earth during that time. It has also been information for the church to warn others about these events.

 

[Quasar92]

Hello Quasar92,

I think that there is also an underlying problem in that, for those who believe that the gathering of the church is going to take place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, they are not understanding that the Lord already took upon himself the wrath that we deserve. Therefore, to believe that believers are gathered at the end of the age and therefore will go through God's wrath, they are not truly understanding what the Lord's sacrifice entails. It would be a slap in Jesus' face to have taken upon himself the wrath that we deserve and then for us to go through His wrath anyway.

As I keep saying, this stems from not understanding that the gathering of the church is a separate event from the Lord's return at the end of the age. The other issue is that many do not understand the severity of God's wrath and who is going to be on this earth to receive it. It certainly wouldn't be directed towards those who have already received Christ and have repented.

Your above assessment is accurate except I would add the following: Jesus saves us from the wrath to come, as recorded in 1 Thess.1:10 and 5:9. The bottom line is the timing of the rapture of the Church, as documentedin 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8, that I have recorded in post #501. Where the Scriptures clearly reveal the rapture of the Church will take place BEFORE the seven year tribulation takes place. The Church is seen in heaven, in Rev.4:1-2, where Jesus used the apostle John, to symbolize the Church being called up into heaven before the tribulation begins, connirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. Then seen in heaven again, at the marriage, of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, according to Rev.19:7-8. From where, Jesus returns to the earth WITH Hus Church, in His rmies from heaven, according to Rev.19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5.


Quasar92

 

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I have posted on another thread about the rapture.. So i will just say here that i believe in the rapture as a Biblical teaching.. What i definitely do not believe in is the pre-tribulation rapture that has a lot of popular support, i can understand why people would want such a doctrine to be true ( escaping persecution sounds wonderful) But the Bible supports the idea of a rapture that happens on the day of the second coming of Jesus.. And that happens After the tribulation. and during the wrath..

 

[Quasar92]

It will take place once the building of the church has been completed. The word of God regarding these end time events will also be for those who will be living on earth during that time. It has also been information for the church to warn others about these events.

There will be two more temples built in Jerusalem {Not churches]. A tribulation temple and a Millennial temple. Review the following link for the Scriptural facts:

THERE WILL BE TWO TEMPLES YET TO BE BUILT: in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum

[SUP]Dan.9:27 [/SUP]He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’[SUP][b][/SUP] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[SUP]"[/SUP]

2 Thess.2:4 "He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

Rev.11:1: "I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers.[SUP]2 [/SUP]But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”



Quasar92