THE RAPTURE

[oyster67]

1Cor.15? What is that actually talking about. I believe it will be the time of the gathering of Gods people. We will meet Christ in the air and then its off to Jerusalem to the kingdom rest. What do you believe and why?

I believe that this is the event spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18.

I believe this event is literal.

I believe this event will take place before the Tribulation period of 7 years begins.

I believe this event is imminent, meaning that it can happen now because all the prerequisites have been fulfilled.

I believe that the Second coming of Jesus Christ to earth to reign for 1000 years will occur about seven years after this Rapture happens, therefore the guessing game of when the Second coming shall occur will be over once the Rapture happens.

 

[oyster67]

Why? Because the Bible tells me so.

 

[ukok102nak]

:hrmm: as it is written
:read:
Mateo: 24. 34. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

~;> so as it is written
:read:
Mga Gawa: 1. 7. And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

 

[DP]

Because Israel rejected Christ the blessings promised to them were given to Gentiles. Israel must be restored but Israel will undergo judgment, the great tribulation, before that happens. The church will not see judgment but is passed from judgment unto eternal life.

I do wish you would consider doing more OT Bible study so you'd have a better grasp of Bible history of who all and where Israel is in the last days. By what you've said above, you reveal you aren't aware of God splitting old Israel into two separate kingdoms and houses, with ten tribes scattered among the Gentiles, which is still how it is today.

And if the ten tribes of Israel are scattered among Gentiles, then what does that mean involving Christ's Church? It means a good number of them are part... of Christ's Church today. If you knew more of their real history and migrations, and especially Bible prophecy of how they were to wind up in the last days, then you would be more amazed at the number of them in Christ's Church today, especially in the historical Christian western nations (see Gen.48 & 49 prophecies).

But no, those you are heeding are totally blind to that also, and are the ones who wrongly teach that only Jews represent Israel. That kind of wrongful thinking began with John Nelson Darby in 1830's Great Britain, and that's where many of their doctrines you espouse originated.

 

[DP]

What prophecy have been filled, did Israel get attacked, did the 1 world leader come into power, how about 1 world gov, 1 world $$, 7year peace treaty with Israel and 1 world leader, the rebuilding of temple, and the biggest one God having judgement on his house sending the Devil to Earth, Israel going into the mountains where a place is prepared for them at Petra, Jordan, 2 Witnesses preaching at the wall, 144000 Jews preaching a new song, so much more has to happen before the Rapture, God shows us what is going to happen before, all I don't know is the day and hour.

The majority here aren't really aware of all that, they're too busy playing with doctrines of men, showing they've been blinded away from those prophecies in God's Word. That's the result of playing religion instead of heeding God's Word in its simplicity as written, i.e., confusion and blindness.

 

[DP]

2Tim. 2:17-18 and their word will eat as does a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Pholetus.
Who concerning the truth (about the harpazo) have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

2Thess.2:3. Let no man deceive you by any means; for except there come a falling away (apostasia) first
and that man of sin be revealed.

I see these two verses in conjunction. They seem to say that:

Some folks thought the rapture had already taken place and they were left behind.

Paul did not say 'that won't happen until the end of seven years of tribulation and the whole world is under the wrath of God.'

He said 'the gatheting unto Christ won't happen until much of the 'church' has departed from the true faith, gospel, and Christ and the antichrist is revealed to the saints who are watching'.

Just thinking out loud here.

Yet Jesus in His Olivet Discourse and in Rev.13 revealed that false one will have short reign over all nations. Paul said that false one will sit in the temple of God (rebuilt Jerusalem temple), showing himself that he is God, and above all that is called God or that is worshiped.

So sorry, you can't just skip that solely based on your reasoning of 2 Thess.2 about that Wicked one being revealed.

Moreover, there's 2 ideas in 2 Thess.2 about that false one being revealed. One is about Christ's elect recognizing him when he comes to work those great signs and wonders on earth, and the other revealed idea is when Jesus comes to destroy that Wicked one as per 2 Thess.2:8, which that false one will then... be revealed to even those who were deceived by him.

 

[DP]

There is definitely no rapture in the Bible. It is a total misreading of the Greek, as I have said many times.

However, that being said - it is simply not a soterilogical issue. No one is going to lose their salvation over a wrong end times belief. In Seminary, I had professors from all different eschatological persuasions. They might have talked about this, and brought up various scriptural points, but no one accused anyone of not being saved about this particular area of doctrine. As a fellow student once said "No one is going to lose their salvation over an educated guess!"

I learned all 4 view points. Everyone should read about all 4 viewpoints, written by people who support them. And why they don't believe in the other viewpoints. Then pray and ask God to show you the truth, which is what I did.

The biggest problem with the rapture view, is that it has been pushed by popular fiction books in the media and horrendous hype about getting "Left Behind!" It's time for people to be discerning, and become informed. Instead of watching some scary movie or reading a book and thinking that you have missed the rapture, (When the Bible never talks of it!) people need to know what the Greek says, in passages like 1 Thess. 4:17, where the word some people take for a rapture, is actually talking about meeting and returning. To earth. With Jesus.

But remember, you simply cannot lose your salvation because of what you believe about end times scenerios.

The only thing I would partially disagree with is regarding you very last statement...

Bible prophecy for the end of this world does involve a coming pseudo-Christ to Jerusalem prior to our gathering to Christ, and that false one will proclaim himself as God, working great signs and wonders (Matt.24:23-26; 2 Thess.2:1-8; Rev.13; Dan.9:27; Dan.11). How will our Lord Jesus feel about those who believed on Him fall away in that time and bow in worship to that false messiah, thinking he will be our Lord Jesus? That is what the prophecies for the end point to. Are those who Jesus will close the door upon and say, "Depart from Me, I never knew you?" I think so.

 

[DP]

You made one good point, you just used "religion" to un-save any Christian who believes in the scriptural, prophetical rapture. Other than that....

But he's actually telling the truth. Prior to the Pre-trib Rapture theory that began with the Edward Irving church which John Darby took up in 1830's Britain, the majority of the Christian Church held to a post-tribulation coming and gathering by Jesus.

What John Darby proposed in 1830's Britain was so novel, that others called his theory the "secret rapture", because Darby originally taught the idea that it would be a private coming and gathering. Still today, that is where the idea comes from in pre-trib literature that those "left-behind" wonder where those raptured went.

 

[DP]

In Matt 24 the greek for taken is 'received'. In Luke 17 the greek for taken is seized. Two different events.
The first are the faithful caught up, received by Christ. The second are those unfaithfull without oil left behind and then seized by authorities.
Luke 22 ...that you may be counted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that will come to pass....
Escape:fled out, to flee from. Sounds like 'to take flight'......upward.

Just random thoughts.

Indeed random, because the first ones taken in Luke 17 are taken to where the eagles (vultures) are gathered, Matt.24:28 being the parallel verse showing those taken are the dead, i.e.., "carcase" (KJV).

It's those who stay grinding at the mill that are blessed because of waiting on Jesus' coming.

 

[DP]

Because the Bible teaches the pre trib rapture, we should believe it, so you might have to give an account for not beliving the Bible, or for not knowing it.

False statement, because God's Word actually reveals a post-tribulational coming of Christ and gathering of His Church. Apostle Paul revealed this plainly in the 2 Thessalonians 2 Scripture. So I challenge you to Biblically prove your statement.

 

[DP]

How about the first century? Because I get the teaching regarding Christ's appearing to gather the church from Paul who got it directly from the Lord. In reference to 1830, you are just repeating what you have heard other people use as an apologetic. Scofield and others is not where we are getting this information from.

Empty words. Prove it.

 

[DP]

Here is what is going to happen according to scripture: at the time that the Lord appears in the air to gather the church, according to 1 Thes.3:13 and 1 Thes.4:14, the Lord is going to bring with him all of the spirits/souls of those who will have died in him, where they will be reunited with their resurrected bodies. Immediately after that-- in Nano second-- those in Christ who are still alive will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with those who will have just previously resurrected to meet the Lord in the air. Where at that time, according to John 14:1-3, the Lord will take the entire group back to the Father's house to those dwelling places that he prepared for us.

You've contradicted yourself, because you've said those still alive on earth at Jesus' coming will be "changed into their immortal and glorified bodies" while you said those who had already died will be "reunited with their resurrected bodies" with defining that as their receiving their same physical flesh bodies they had when alive, like our Lord Jesus's resurrection.

If the saints still alive are changed to their "spiritual body" like Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, then that does not mean the same type of body they had. And that is your meaning of "immortal and glorified bodies".

The saints that had already died are already... in their spiritual bodies, which is HOW... Jesus brings them with Him when He comes.

 

[popeye]

Empty words. Prove it.

It's your magic date ,not his.

It is a rabbit trail. Your rabbit trail.

We never initiated it because there is zero merit in it's ridiculous creation by those with poor doctrines in need of extra biblical diversions.

Your magic date is nothing more than desperation.

You have never brought forward a single post trib verse,never.

That bankruptcy of substance prompts those silly rabbit trails of word definitions,and dead saints that you top off with bizarre transposing to modify God's pure word.

 

[popeye]

The majority here aren't really aware of all that, they're too busy playing with doctrines of men, showing they've been blinded away from those prophecies in God's Word. That's the result of playing religion instead of heeding God's Word in its simplicity as written, i.e., confusion and blindness.

But those of us that clean your plow with the bible.....

Now that's another story altogether huh?

 

[popeye]

False statement, because God's Word actually reveals a post-tribulational coming of Christ and gathering of His Church. Apostle Paul revealed this plainly in the 2 Thessalonians 2 Scripture. So I challenge you to Biblically prove your statement.

Rev 14 proves you are off the charts in your biblical demolition.

You do better closing the bible and going into your secular magic date mode.

 

[SteelToedKodiak]

But he's actually telling the truth. Prior to the Pre-trib Rapture theory that began with the Edward Irving church which John Darby took up in 1830's Britain, the majority of the Christian Church held to a post-tribulation coming and gathering by Jesus.

What John Darby proposed in 1830's Britain was so novel, that others called his theory the "secret rapture", because Darby originally taught the idea that it would be a private coming and gathering. Still today, that is where the idea comes from in pre-trib literature that those "left-behind" wonder where those raptured went.

What other sound biblical doctrines can we "wrongly" believe in that will result in the "loss" of our salvation?

 

[oyster67]

You've contradicted yourself, because you've said those still alive on earth at Jesus' coming will be "changed into their immortal and glorified bodies" while you said those who had already died will be "reunited with their resurrected bodies" with defining that as their receiving their same physical flesh bodies they had when alive, like our Lord Jesus's resurrection.

If the saints still alive are changed to their "spiritual body" like Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, then that does not mean the same type of body they had. And that is your meaning of "immortal and glorified bodies".

The saints that had already died are already... in their spiritual bodies, which is HOW... Jesus brings them with Him when He comes.

He is simply telling you what the Bible says. You can maintain that the Bible contradicts itself if you want to. You can bang your head against a brick wall if you want to. We can't stop you.

It seems to bother some when truth is simple and straightforward. They find strange comfort in distortion and convolution.

Glorification happens at the rapture. Resurrection does not exclude this any more than the living bodies do.

 

[popeye]

Originally Posted by Angela53510
.......But remember, you simply cannot lose your salvation because of what you believe about end times scenerios.

The only thing I would partially disagree with is regarding you very last statement...

You can not make this stuff up.

We shall call this spiritual suicide LOL


The only thing angela gets right he has to to take such a valiant stand against. OMG so funny.

 

[Crustyone]

Daniel chapter 11 tells of every empire that will be of significance in the Middle East from the time of Daniel to the rapture after verse 31 and then on to Armageddon in verse 45. It looks like there is a good description of the verses in a website called End Times Signs- Rapture Prophecy- Timelines Explained. Daniel chapter 11 is a timeline to follow that no other prophecies provide.

 

[PlainWord]

Daniel chapter 11 tells of every empire that will be of significance in the Middle East from the time of Daniel to the rapture after verse 31 and then on to Armageddon in verse 45. It looks like there is a good description of the verses in a website called End Times Signs- Rapture Prophecy- Timelines Explained. Daniel chapter 11 is a timeline to follow that no other prophecies provide.

You are correct but the link is way off.