LOL. Rev 20:4-6 mentions two resurrections. Which one means you don't face the second death, the first one or the second one?
Can you tell me what the second death is? Maybe answer that first then it should help you with my first question.
THE RAPTURE
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Can you tell me what the second death is? Maybe answer that first then it should help you with my first question.
But 70 weeks were only appointed for Daniel's people and their city. Weeks 1-7 were from the command to rebuild until Jerusalem was rebuilt. Weeks 8-69 where from the rebuilding of Jerusalem until Christ appeared to John the Baptist. So, clearly the first 69 weeks dealt only with the Jews and Jerusalem. Why does week 70 suddenly get expanded to deal with the entire planet??? Why is there a 2,000 + year break between week 69 and 70? Daniel doesn't mention a break.
Then, if you look at the things that were to be done during the 70 weeks you see this list:
“Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city:
1) To finish the transgression (Jews did this when they nailed Jesus to the Cross)
2) To make an end of sins (Jesus did this at the Cross)
3) To make reconciliation for iniquity (Jesus did this at the Cross)
4) To bring in everlasting righteousness (Jesus did this at the Cross)
5) To seal up vision and prophecy (happened at Pentecost)
6) And to anoint the Most Holy (Woman at Bethany did this to Jesus)
So we see all of these things were done within the 70 weeks. I don't see anything about the Great Tribulation or Wrath of God mentioned in this list. I don't see anything about any Antichrist. I don't see any peace treaty or hint of deception.
Just trying to understand why when you read Daniel 9 you see a huge gap of thousands of years then apply a final 7 year period to the entire planet when all 70 weeks were for Israel and her people and everything on the list was done?
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Now you are talking current events. Forget Daniel 9 it's in the past. Instead focus on Daniel 11 from verse 31 on. This is future. It is always dangerous to mix passage together unless you are sure they go together. Dan 9 does not go with Rev 13. Dan 11 goes with Rev 13. Dan 9 does not contain the term "Abomination of Desolation" whereas Dan 11 does. Dan 9 does not tell us of someone claiming to be God, Dan 11 does.
You take (many do, not just you) one phrase from Dan 9, this one:
"and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate"
and you equate it to this from Mat 24:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place...
WHY? You are barking up the wrong tree my friend. The abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel is found here in Chapter 11:
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.
This is the verse that goes with Mat 24:15. This verse mentions an army. This verse has a holy place (sanctuary). Get out of Dan 9 and into Dan 11 my friend if you want to see where we are at in history.
The next prophetic event from Dan 11 is the defiling of the sanctuary fortress, which is the wailing wall.
Rev 13 takes place a few hundred miles to the north of there in the region of the leopard, lion and bear.
Hi tanakh,
You're up and at 'em early this morning, indeed. The book of Daniel is addressed exclusively to Israel, the Church has nothing whatever to do with it. You may have noticed in 1 Thess.4:16, Michael, the archangel is involved with the Church as well. Thess., as well as every epistle in the Bible are addressed o the Church.
The following will direct you by the Scriptures as to the precise timing of the pre-trib rapture of the churchj:
2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].
The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in verse 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.
In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.
Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].
Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.
From: http://www.raptureready.com/featured...onians2_3.html
"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.
The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."
The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:
In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].
The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8
Jesus used the apostle John to symbolize the Church being called up into heaven before the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. That the Church is in heaven after that, is confirmed in the marriage that takes pace in heaven between the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth WITH His Church in verse 14, confirming Zech.14:4-5.
Hope this heips.
Quasar92.
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The first 69 weeks of Dan.9:27, 483 years, of the 490 total, have been fulfilled. The 70th week is the seven year tribulation, yet to take place, Jesus amplified in Mt.24, Mk.13, Lk.21 and Rev.6. Rev.13 pertains to events involving the entire world, primarily fcused on Israel.
Quasr92
You Want to believe in the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine... So much so that you will not consider anything other then an interpretation of scriptures that support a pre-tribulation rapture..
I have found that after near 20 years being on Christian forums it is best to simply gives ones beliefs and ones scriptures and then let people make up their own minds.. I realize when i post the thoughts i have i am usually not talking to most of the posters who are taking part in the discussion because most of the posters have already made their minds up.. I post for the benefit of those who are reading on and have not yet come to a firm stance on the issue..
I do not waste my time banging my head against brick walls.. People who are focused on pushing their doctrine rather then being open to considering their beliefs might be wrong..
You base this on what? Things someone taught you? How do you know that you can trust the teaching of these people?
I already showed you that all of Daniel's 70 weeks were fulfilled. Nothing on the list of things to be determined are outstanding. No break is taught. All 70 weeks pertained to Daniel's people and Daniel's city. The 70 weeks ended at the Cross or possibly Pentecost.
If I told you that there were to be 70 weeks until I finish college, 7 weeks until I finish my junior year then 62 weeks until I finish all of my classes in my senior year. Then one week left for finals. Are you going to put 2,000 years between when I finish my classes until I complete my finals? The "finals" for Israel was Christ's ministry which ended at the Cross. He was supposed to have a 7 year ministry but in the middle of the week, He was cut off.
This phrase: Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week...
Means this: Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
______________________________________
This phrase: But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering
Means this: Eph 5:2 Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. Christ became our sacrifice and offering thus taking away or ending them.
________________________
This Phrase: and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate...
Means this: Because of the many sins of the Jews, Christ shall make their temple desolate.
________________________
This Phrase: even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate
Means this: The Temple shall remain desolate until the consuming fire is poured out on the Day of the Lord against the desolate people who are Muslims, see Gal 4: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.[SUP] 30 [/SUP]Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
My interpretation of Dan 9 is true and accurate. It has been completed. As I said, you are barking up the wrong tree. There is still a boggy man but he's found in Dan 11, not Dan 9. There is no final 7 year tribulation period. The Tribulation lasts just 45 days and is 100% centered around Israel.
Rev 13 shows us the Beast Empire reforming to Israel's north. The wounded head is healing. The 7th head was the Ottoman Empire and it received it's deadly wound in 1922, but now a new Caliphate has been declared in the region of the leopard, lion, bear. Islamic countries will coalesce around Iran, Iraq and Syria with Russia joining them from the north and Libya and Ethiopia from the South and they will attack Israel. They attack Saudi Arabia too. THIS IS THE GREAT TRIBULATION spoken of by JESUS.
Everything I am saying is happening right before your eyes but because someone incorrectly interpreted Dan 9:27 and put it in the footnotes of your Scofield Reference Bible 100 years ago, you are missing it.
We have the advantage of current world affairs. I was able to alter my life long beliefs to adjust to what is happening. I guess you are unable to do so.
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That's right, the FIRST resurrection is of the tribulation martyrs/saints in Rev.20:4. The SECOND resurrection is at the GWTJ, in Rev.20:11-15, of everyone left in their graves, recorded in Rev.20:5, including all of them who died during the 1,000 year reign of Christ, on earth.
Do you have a proiblem with that?
Quasar92
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Sort of. It isn't only the martyrs who partake in the first resurrection but all SAVED both dead and ALIVE. If you are a Christian (and I assume you are) you have already taken part in the first resurrection. How does that make you feel? YOU ARE ALIVE my friend and you SHALL NEVER DIE just as those martyrs have not died.
You are a NEW MAN, a NEW CREATION.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Ephesians 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
This is the FIRST RESURRECTION. Blessed and holy are all of us!! The second death (spiritual) has no power over any of us who are SAVED!!
John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Do you believe this Brother Quasar? You are 92 and you shall never die!! Was Jesus speaking of a physical death or a spiritual death? I submit to you that the second death is the spiritual death. So which resurrection (first or second) saves you from the spiritual death?
All are resurrected in the second and final resurrection. This is taught in at least 3 places (John 5:29, Dan 12:2, Acts 24:15) so it has to be true. So if all will be resurrected but not all are saved, some will die a second death. Therefore the second resurrection does not protect you from the second death meaning the only resurrection that will is the first one. This means only the SAVED take part in the first resurrection because it is the spiritual one.
Think long and hard about this my friend. It took me a long time to grasp it. Many Pharisees never got it. Don't be like them.
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Do you believe this Brother Quasar? You are 92 and you shall never die!! Was Jesus speaking of a physical death or a spiritual death? I submit to you that the second death is the spiritual death. So which resurrection (first or second) saves you from the spiritual death?
All are resurrected in the second and final resurrection. This is taught in at least 3 places (John 5:29, Dan 12:2, Acts 24:15) so it has to be true. So if all will be resurrected but not all are saved, some will die a second death. Therefore the second resurrection does not protect you from the second death meaning the only resurrection that will is the first one. This means only the SAVED take part in the first resurrection because it is the spiritual one.
Think long and hard about this my friend. It took me a long time to grasp it. Many Pharisees never got it. Don't be like them.
FYI, the Church age will end at the prer-trib rapture of the Church, in which every believer who ever lived, alive or dead, up to that time, yet to take place, will be with Christ, wherever He is, forever. As recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-7. Seven years BEFORE the FIRST resurrection of the tribulation martyrs/saints, recorded in Rev.20:4. Which follows Jesus second coming WITH His Church, in His armies from heaven, recorded in ev.1:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5.
Supposint you tell us how anyone who ever belongs to the one body of Christ can possibly be involved in the resurrection of Rev.20:4, after the Church, all believers have been CAUGHT UP to be with Jesus forever, SEVEN years before. The trib. martyrs.saints DO NOT belong to the Church. They are from those who are left behind, when the Church is raptured.
Quasar92
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The allegorical spiritualizing of the prophetic Scriptures fail to square with the Scriptures and therefore, come from false prophets. Non general resurrections have yet taken place, that are recorded in the Bible, in Rev.20:4-5.
By what Christian authority do your qualifications come from to teach the Bible?
Quasar92.
The 70 weeks of years prophecy in Dan.9:24-27 is he decree of God, pertaining to the disposition of Israel, from the time of their 70 year exile to Babylon and Persia, to the second coming of Christ. When the remnant of them left, after the tribulation, have been reconciled back to God. That is what it is all about. Review the following to learn the reasons for the prophecy to begin with.
70 Weeks prophecy in Daniel of 490 years was based on the reasons for their 70 year exile to Babylon in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum
Quasar92
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We don't get authority from man but from the Word!!
There is but one "general" or physical resurrection. I guess your wisdom will remain with the Pharisees because you clearly cannot grasp the first resurrection.
79 years ago, in August 1937, around a campfire with a group of young Christians testifying for Christ, during a Bible conference at Lake Sammamish, WN., I received Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior. While I was in High School. Since then, I have received qulifications to teach the Bible from two Bible Colleges.
As such, when, may I ask did you believe/receive Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior? Are you aware of the penalties you face for teachings that are contrary to what the Bible teaches? Review 1 Cor.3:10-15. You will lose any possibility for rewards.
Qasar92
1) What happened to the years between the death of Christ and the destruction of the Temple?
2) What happened to the years between 70 AD and 1948 AD? Did Daniel's people fall off the planet?
3) What happened to the years between 1948 and today? They are back in their land and in their Holy City since 1967.
Did these years cease to exist? Don't call them dead years either because there were plenty of dead years between the time the city was rebuilt to Jesus where nothing listed to be fulfilled was happening.
Daniel's prophesy was all about the freedom from exile in Babylon to the return to Israel, the rebuilding of the Temple and city and the life, death and resurrection of Christ. I showed you key phrases from Daniel and matched them up to identical phrases in the NT.
The first key to prophesy is to allow the Bible to translate itself. I compare scripture to scripture. Instead you take me to what some other man has written. Can you not see the folly in that?
I rejoice in your salvation my friend.
My dad was a pastor. I grew up in the Church. I came to the Lord at the age of 7 and was Baptized at 13.
Your degrees explain your spiritual ignorance (said with love but with the force of truth). I wonder how many degrees the Pharisees and Sadducees had in their day? I bet they went to the finest universities and learned every nuance of the Law. But when it came to the spiritual matters that Jesus taught them, they were blind.
I am not encumbered by the foolish teachings of men. I have an Engineering degree and have excelled at various disciplines including nuclear engineering and quality engineering using advanced statistical analysis to solve very complex problems. I have worked in government and appeared before the US Senate as an expert witness. I worked in the private sector for several fortune 500 companies saving them tens of millions of dollars by solving complex manufacturing problems that they could not solve. I started by own business in my garage and have done over $50 million in sales.
I am a problem solver. I solve problems that others cannot solve. It's what I do. So no sir, no man has given me a piece of paper to tell me I'm an expert in the Bible. I learned from thousands of hours of private study testing the Word. I have needed to change my views on things multiple times because like you, I grew up being taught the things you were taught. It is you and those who taught you, who are teaching contrary doctrines.
Keep this in mind: The Lord turned to fishermen and tax collectors and men in their teens to be His disciples. He did not turn to the religious leaders of His day. Sadly, history repeats. (Said with utmost respect and Christian love). I am trying to correct all these errors that have crept into the church.
...the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
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That is another of your statements contradicting the rtophetic Scriptures! I gave you the comprehensive study in the historic reasons, in my post #573, for the 70 week prophecy in Dan.9:24-27! Read it and learn the Scriptural facts and truth!
Your abrasive language serves you no other purpose other than a clear window of your character!
70 Weeks prophecy in Daniel of 490 years was based on the reasons for their 70 year exile to Babylon in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum
Quasar92
FYI, God's prophetic timetable pertaining to Israel, in Dan.9:24-27, temporarily ended with the destruction of the temple and of Jerusalem, 40 years after Jesus crucifixion in Dan.9:26, ending the 69th week, and 483 years of the 490 year prophecy. What you are engaging in has nothing whatever to do with Israel, in whom the prophecy is all about!
All you are doing is propogating false prophecy! I vigorously urge you to cut it out now! There isn't a shred of support for it in the Bible!
Quasar92
I believe the King of the North, AKA Man of Sin, AKA Son of Perdition, AKA the AntiChrist is alive today and in a prominent position of power. I believe I know who he is.
No, I'm not going to tell you because you are not ready to accept even the most basic of Biblical principles all in defense of a bogus Pre-Trib rapture doctrine. This pre-trib rapture lie has clouded the judgment of many Biblical men. It has contorted just about every prophetic message just as Peter taught that it would.
Any man who espouses the Pre-Trib Rapture theory CANNOT be trusted to teach ANY future event. It would be like trusting Hillary to tell us the truth in the future. I know these words sting and are hurtful. I don't mean to hurt or offend but because I have believed as you believe, I know exactly why you think the way you do. This is how I know you are wrong and where you are going wrong. This is why I show you little obvious things and still you cannot understand.
You see most post tribbers were once pre-tribbers. We come from a place of blindness in prophesy to clarity. You have never understood, or even bothered to try, why we think the way we do. Without even realizing it, you pre-tribbers have twisted so much of the Bible, the prophetic parts, to fit your one false doctrine. So far nothing I have showed you is ringing a bell in your head which troubles me. I am not troubled worried about your salvation.
I am worried that the doctrine you so proudly teach to the world, this "fly away" nonsense is the thing that will get many to scoff in the last days. Eventually events will unfold in the world that you cannot ignore. Once the Wailing Wall is defiled, once the Abomination of Desolation is set up there, once Israel is surrounded by her enemies, once the Man of Sin declares to be God. Once these things happen, not even you will be able to hold to your pre-trib doctrine. You will be forced to admit your error. On that day, you will think of me.
But at this point it will be too late for you to teach anyone anymore about Christ returning. This is when this verse will kick in. The scoffers are bad people, they are not Post Tribbers.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
They don't know that the Day of the Lord is imminent and that they are about to be "swept away" or "taken" as you wrongly apply the term to yourself.
No, I'm not going to tell you because you are not ready to accept even the most basic of Biblical principles all in defense of a bogus Pre-Trib rapture doctrine. This pre-trib rapture lie has clouded the judgment of many Biblical men. It has contorted just about every prophetic message just as Peter taught that it would.
Any man who espouses the Pre-Trib Rapture theory CANNOT be trusted to teach ANY future event. It would be like trusting Hillary to tell us the truth in the future. I know these words sting and are hurtful. I don't mean to hurt or offend but because I have believed as you believe, I know exactly why you think the way you do. This is how I know you are wrong and where you are going wrong. This is why I show you little obvious things and still you cannot understand.
You see most post tribbers were once pre-tribbers. We come from a place of blindness in prophesy to clarity. You have never understood, or even bothered to try, why we think the way we do. Without even realizing it, you pre-tribbers have twisted so much of the Bible, the prophetic parts, to fit your one false doctrine. So far nothing I have showed you is ringing a bell in your head which troubles me. I am not troubled worried about your salvation.
I am worried that the doctrine you so proudly teach to the world, this "fly away" nonsense is the thing that will get many to scoff in the last days. Eventually events will unfold in the world that you cannot ignore. Once the Wailing Wall is defiled, once the Abomination of Desolation is set up there, once Israel is surrounded by her enemies, once the Man of Sin declares to be God. Once these things happen, not even you will be able to hold to your pre-trib doctrine. You will be forced to admit your error. On that day, you will think of me.
But at this point it will be too late for you to teach anyone anymore about Christ returning. This is when this verse will kick in. The scoffers are bad people, they are not Post Tribbers.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
They don't know that the Day of the Lord is imminent and that they are about to be "swept away" or "taken" as you wrongly apply the term to yourself.
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