THE RAPTURE

[miknik5]

No, only those who are in Christ dead and living, will be caught up. Those who will have rejected Christ will remain on the earth during the time of God's wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgements.

In CHRIST?
Therefore not all are IN CHRIST?
How does one get "IN" CHRIST?

I have heard that all are "in" CHRIST but not all are "justified".

I thought one had to be washed by GOD alone to be "in" CHRIST and that those who have been washed by GOD alone KNOW it...therefore they are justified by the SPIRIT who marks us as belonging to GOD through FAITH in HIS SON...

In HIS "yes, FINISHED WORK"...but the TRUTH is, not all accept this "FINISHED WORK".
Do they have to acknowledge that "FINISHED WORK".

And what exactly is that "FINISHED WORK"?

Correct?
Therefore will they be justified by their "good deeds" before GOD and have a part in this event?
Or,. do they FIRST have to accept THE FINISHED WORK of CHRIST?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Is this event for all men and women regardless if they have believed the Gospel?
Or, is this event for men and women who have believed the Gospel and have shown before all men only "good works" which should justify them before GOD as deserving to have a part in this Rapture, prior to the time of tribulation?
Or, is this event for men and women who have believed the Gospel...

Both those who have died in Christ and those who are still alive, will be caught up. Believers are not saved by performing good works, but by faith in Christ as the One who paid the penalty for their sins by the shedding of his blood. It is by grace through faith that we have been saved. Regarding salvation by works, please consider the man crucified with Christ who could not come down off the cross to do any good works but was saved only by believing in Jesus and was saved by that belief.

 

[Ahwatukee]

How does one get "IN" CHRIST?

"If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."

 

[miknik5]

Both those who have died in Christ and those who are still alive, will be caught up. Believers are not saved by performing good works, but by faith in Christ as the One who paid the penalty for their sins by the shedding of his blood. It is by grace through faith that we have been saved. Regarding salvation by works, please consider the man crucified with Christ who could not come down off the cross to do any good works but was saved only by believing in Jesus and was saved by that belief.

Thank you.

So CHRIST'S FINISHED WORK...though FINISHED, is not accepted by ALL MEN.
Correct?
So they have NOT been reconciled to GOD IN CHRIST JESUS.
And therefore will not be justified by anything but THE FINISHED WORK of CHRIST...and yet, because they do not believe this WORK, though this WORK was done for all men from the foundation of the world, it's not an issue since HIS WORK is a better work than Adam's...

Correct?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Thank you.

So CHRIST'S FINISHED WORK...though FINISHED, is not accepted by ALL MEN.
Correct?
So they have NOT been reconciled to GOD IN CHRIST JESUS.
Correct?

All of the above is correct. For regarding this, the word of God says:

"Whoever has the Son has life, but whoever does not have the son does not have life and the wrath of God rests upon him."

 

[Ahwatukee]

Thank you.

So CHRIST'S FINISHED WORK...though FINISHED, is not accepted by ALL MEN.
Correct?
So they have NOT been reconciled to GOD IN CHRIST JESUS.
And therefore will not be justified by anything but THE FINISHED WORK of CHRIST...and yet, because they do not believe this WORK, though this WORK was done for all men from the foundation of the world, it's not an issue since HIS WORK is a better work than Adam's...

Correct?

Christ's finished work is the perfect fulfillment of the law and the payment for sin, by the One who had no sin.

 

[miknik5]

Christ's finished work is the perfect fulfillment of the law and the payment for sin, by the One who had no sin.

But not all believe that which is why the GOSPEL is preached
Correct?

 

[miknik5]

And another question...not all are "born again" by HIS RESURRECTION.

Correct?

One would have to first believe that HE died for our sins.

Correct?

Even if it is HIS FINISHED WORK (AND IT IS) not all believe this.
And no one can "baptize themselves into CHRIST JESUS"...

That is done by GOD.
And because it is GOD who gives us a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance in CHRIST we know GOD has reconciled us by transferring us into HIS SON and we are justified by having believed in HIS SON...

Correct?

 

[Ahwatukee]

And another question...not all are "born again" by HIS RESURRECTION. Correct?

A person is born again by trusting in Christ as the One who provided salvation for them by the shedding of his blood. At that time we become a new creation. There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. From that time on, the believer receives the Holy Spirit who begins the process of sanctification, which is the process of being made holy. The believer is being transformed into Christ's image, which are the fruits of the spirit, the nature and characteristics of God.

 

[PlainWord]

Again, the above are all just misapplied scriptures to support your position. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will run parallel throughout the entire seven years, which will fulfill the wrath of God, with Jesus returning after the 7th bowl has been poured out.

And you read that from which passage?

Show me the passage that explicitly states that the Great Tribulation, spoken of by Jesus in Mat 24, runs 7 years.

Show me the passage that explicitly states that all of each seals, trumpets and bowls are part of the Great Tribulation, spoken of by Jesus in Mat 24.

Show me where they run parallel.

Show me a passage that explicitly states that the Great Tribulation, spoken of by Jesus in Mat 24, is part of God's wrath.

When we strip everything down, we find that you are making assumptions far more radical than me.

 

[miknik5]

A person is born again by trusting in Christ as the One who provided salvation for them by the shedding of his blood. At that time we become a new creation. There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. From that time on, the believer receives the Holy Spirit who begins the process of sanctification, which is the process of being made holy. The believer is being transformed into Christ's image, which are the fruits of the spirit, the nature and characteristics of God.

Thank you...

 

[miknik5]

Sorry for the interruption

 

[Ahwatukee]

Show me the passage that explicitly states that the Great Tribulation, spoken of by Jesus in Mat 24, runs 7 years

The last seven years:
"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

The Middle of that last seven years, as marked by the abomination being set up:
"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains"

The disciples ask the Lord what will be the sign of his return and the end of the age. Matt.24:15 marks the middle of that seven year period by Christ's quote of Dan.9:27. Prior to Matt.24:15 would be the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. Regarding the first 3 1/2 years the Lord says the following:

"Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom"

The above is referring to the 2nd seal, the rider on the red horse, who takes peace from the earth so that men kill one another.

"There will be famines and earthquakes in various places."

The above is referring to the 3rd seal, the black horse which results in famine.

Matt.24:15 is where the abomination is set up which marks the middle of that last seven years, with Matt.24:29-32 as being the Lord's return to the earth to end that age, which completes that last that last 3 1/2 years, fulfilling the entire seven years.

Show me a passage that explicitly states that the Great Tribulation, spoken of by Jesus in Mat 24, is part of God's wrath.[/qutoe]

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are how God is going to carry out his wrath, the day of the Lord, which is all to obvious. From the middle of the seven years, Jesus referred to it as follows:

"For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."

Notice that the scripture above does not say "from the beginning of the nation Israel" but "from the beginning of the world" meaning that the of time of great tribulation will affect the entire world and not just Israel (see Dan.2:31-45). The reason that from the time that the abomination is set up as being the great tribulation is because that is the time when the beast will end the sacrifices and offerings, set up that abomination and stand in the temple proclaiming himself to be God. That ruler, the antichrist, will be given power to make war and conquer the great tribulation saints during that last 3 1/2 years (Dan.7:25, Rev.13:5). He will also be given authority over all the inhabitants of the earth as described in Rev.13:8.

We know that the seals, trumpets and bowls will be taking place during the time of the beasts reign because of the following:

"The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done."

The 1st seal, that rider on the white horse, is that ruler, the antichrist who is going out to make war and conquer. He is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse of Rev.19:11-21. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will run through the entire seven years, which includes the time of the beasts reign.

 

[PlainWord]

Does every believer in CHRIST JESUS believe there is a rapture?

If they do. Why?
If they don't. Why?

There is a rapture but we disagree on the timing. I am a post tribulation rapture believer. I used to believe that the rapture was before the Tribulation, but not anymore.

The Great Tribulation, spoken of by Jesus, is not this world-wide set of catastrophes as many have taught us. Rather, it is the all out attack against Israel by her enemies (mostly Islamic states to her north, with Libya, Ethiopia and perhaps Russia reluctantly leading the way). The Great Tribulation will begin once the Abomination of Desolation is set up at the Wailing Wall which happens a little over 3.5 years after the Palestinians defile the Wailing Wall which causes the Jews to stop praying there. This is important, Jesus tells only those in Judea to flee in Mat 24 and Mrk 13. Because the Great Tribulation is the massive attack of Israel which nearly destroys her, there is no need to rapture the Church off the planet before it.

Revelation is written with an enormous amount of figurative language. This was done to fool the Romans. OT figurative language can be found throughout. This doesn't mean bad things won't happen, they will. It just means the bad things which really happen are not the literal things told in Revelation. They mean something else. There is no way I can share all of this in one post.

Bottom line is only one return of Christ is taught. It is found AFTER the Great Tribulation of Israel. The GT of Israel lasts up to 45 days as taught in Dan 12, not 7 years as many wrongly teach. During the GT of Israel Islamic forces from the north attack Islamic forces from the south like Saudi Arabia. Mecca will get nuked. Along the way, the Islamic King of the North, will enter Israel. He will also claim to be above everything that is worshiped including God.

This fake god will come to his end and then the Great Wrath of God is poured out and the earth will experience many bad things. But we are not appointed to this wrath so no need to worry.

When Christ returns, it's called the "Day of the Lord." This is when God's Wrath is poured out against those who came up against Israel. There will be a literal resurrection of everyone who died immediately followed by the Rapture. This happens on the very last day of this present earth age. After this, Christ will divide the nations, good and bad (sheep and goats). The sheep enter their reward, the goats have a different destination.

That's the short of what I firmly believe the Bible actually teaches.

 

[miknik5]

There is a rapture but we disagree on the timing. I am a post tribulation rapture believer. I used to believe that the rapture was before the Tribulation, but not anymore.

The Great Tribulation, spoken of by Jesus, is not this world-wide set of catastrophes as many have taught us. Rather, it is the all out attack against Israel by her enemies (mostly Islamic states to her north, with Libya, Ethiopia and perhaps Russia reluctantly leading the way). The Great Tribulation will begin once the Abomination of Desolation is set up at the Wailing Wall which happens a little over 3.5 years after the Palestinians defile the Wailing Wall which causes the Jews to stop praying there. This is important, Jesus tells only those in Judea to flee in Mat 24 and Mrk 13. Because the Great Tribulation is the massive attack of Israel which nearly destroys her, there is no need to rapture the Church off the planet before it.

Revelation is written with an enormous amount of figurative language. This was done to fool the Romans. OT figurative language can be found throughout. This doesn't mean bad things won't happen, they will. It just means the bad things which really happen are not the literal things told in Revelation. They mean something else. There is no way I can share all of this in one post.

Bottom line is only one return of Christ is taught. It is found AFTER the Great Tribulation of Israel. The GT of Israel lasts up to 45 days as taught in Dan 12, not 7 years as many wrongly teach. During the GT of Israel Islamic forces from the north attack Islamic forces from the south like Saudi Arabia. Mecca will get nuked. Along the way, the Islamic King of the North, will enter Israel. He will also claim to be above everything that is worshiped including God.

This fake god will come to his end and then the Great Wrath of God is poured out and the earth will experience many bad things. But we are not appointed to this wrath so no need to worry.

When Christ returns, it's called the "Day of the Lord." This is when God's Wrath is poured out against those who came up against Israel. There will be a literal resurrection of everyone who died immediately followed by the Rapture. This happens on the very last day of this present earth age. After this, Christ will divide the nations, good and bad (sheep and goats). The sheep enter their reward, the goats have a different destination.

That's the short of what I firmly believe the Bible actually teaches.

Where do you place the 1000 year reign?

 

[PlainWord]

A person is born again by trusting in Christ as the One who provided salvation for them by the shedding of his blood. At that time we become a new creation. There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. From that time on, the believer receives the Holy Spirit who begins the process of sanctification, which is the process of being made holy. The believer is being transformed into Christ's image, which are the fruits of the spirit, the nature and characteristics of God.

Yeah, we agree. The transformation you are discussing is called "the First Resurrection" by John in Rev 20. This is where we "put to death" our old selves and are spiritually "resurrected" as new men (and women). Those who take part in the first resurrection will not face the second death. We become "alive" immediately and will never die.

 

[miknik5]

Yeah, we agree. The transformation you are discussing is called "the First Resurrection" by John in Rev 20. This is where we "put to death" our old selves and are spiritually "resurrected" as new men (and women). Those who take part in the first resurrection will not face the second death. We become "alive" immediately and will never die.

Ok. Then you agree that the rest of the dead are not raised until after this 1000 year reign?
that those who have a part in the first resurrection have heard the VOICE of THE SON OF GOD and had believed

while those at the kingdom be of this 1000 year reign are those in the grave who will hear the VOICE of THE SON of GOD and will be raised to be judged according to their works

 

[PlainWord]

Where do you place the 1000 year reign?

The one in Rev 20 is happening now and has been going on about 1,000 years. 1,000 years represents a long period of time. John is only discussing those who have been beheaded for Christ because they were killed by the "beast" because they have special significance in that much of Revelation deals with the Beast so John is comparing and contrasting the fates of two groups. First John tells us the wonderful fate that the victims of the beast receive (alive and reigning in heaven with Christ) then he tells us the horrible fate that those who follow the beast receive (everlasting torment).

John uses this opportunity to tells us that these souls in heaven are spiritually alive and reigning with Christ. Souls are only found in heaven and John saw souls and calls them souls. However, every Christian who has died and whose soul is in heaven is also "ALIVE REIGNING WITH CHRIST."

John teaches that there are two resurrections and two deaths. This teaching in Rev 20 can also be found in his own Book of John in Chapters 1, 3, 6, 11, 16-17 for starters. When a sinner comes to Christ and accepts Him as his/her Lord and Savior, a transformation takes place. The old person dies and the new person is "born again." This is the first resurrection. Those who experience this will NEVER die spiritually. Therefore the second death has no power over them.

Let me show you this way:

SAVED: Born > Come to Christ, old sinful self dies and we are resurrected as new creatures which is the First Resurrection (spiritual) > physical death > Second resurrection (get new bodies)

But once saved you are reigning with Christ and in His kingdom right away, whether you are dead or alive, we are "with" Christ reigning in His kingdom.

UNSAVED: Born > die (physically) > Second Resurrection > Second Death (spiritual).

So, SAVED get 2 resurrections (both spiritual and physical) and 1 death (physical only) and UNSAVED get 1 resurrection (physical only) and two deaths (physical followed by spiritual)

When Christ returns, He does indeed reign on earth over the nations. We aren't told for how long but He makes everything new and He must reign until He has defeated all His enemies with the last enemy to be defeated being DEATH.

 

[miknik5]

I'm a bit confused because the false prophet and the false Christ are thrown into the lake of fire just before these who reign with CHRIST are seen reigning firing this 1000 year reign which will be a period of peace since just before this Satan is bound up and is set free at the end of the 1000 year reifn

 

[PlainWord]

Ok. Then you agree that the rest of the dead are not raised until after this 1000 year reign?
that those who have a part in the first resurrection have heard the VOICE of THE SON OF GOD and had believed

while those at the kingdom be of this 1000 year reign are those in the grave who will hear the VOICE of THE SON of GOD and will be raised to be judged according to their works

I think I agree with everything you just said. Maybe not. Let me restate:

The moment a true believer comes to Christ, they have just experienced the First Resurrection. At that very moment they are with Christ and the Holy Spirit enters them. They are a new Creation. They are "Born Again." At this very moment, they enter the Kingdom of God and can NEVER die spiritually. They are with Christ constantly "reigning" in His kingdom on earth and in heaven once they die physically.

Yes, after Christ returns all those in the graves will come forth. This is the Second Resurrection and everyone participates in it, both the SAVED and UNSAVED. The SAVED receive their rewards and the UNSAVED are judged according to their works.