THE RAPTURE

[Ahwatukee]

That translation steered you off course.

Here is the greek interlinear;
And I saw thrones, and theysat upon them, and judgmentwas given unto them: and [Isaw] the souls of them thatwere beheaded for the witnessof Jesus, and for the word ofGod, and which had notworshipped the beast, neitherhis image, neither had received[his] mark upon theirforeheads, or in their hands;and they lived and reignedwith Christ a thousand years.

"came to life" is simply not there.

IOW I could say "...and I saw paul who had been martyred for the gospel,and he sat on thrones,and he lived and reigned with Christ..."

No way anyone could say that he "came to life" 5 minutes before. That would be way,way out of context.

Again,there is no resurrection of martyrs post trib.

But it is there. That is why I included the next verse:

"The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended."

The verse above supports the previous verse in that by saying "the rest of the dead did not come to life" would infer that those in the previous verse did come to life. I am well aware of the interlinear.

"They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended."

Verse 5 supports verse 4

 

[popeye]

But it is there. That is why I included the next verse:

"The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended."

The verse above supports the previous verse in that by saying "the rest of the dead did not come to life" would infer that those in the previous verse did come to life. I am well aware of the interlinear.

"They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended."

Verse 5 supports verse 4

That translation supports that THEORY.

IT DOES NOT SAY THAT.

PLEASE post for us the literal word for word,as we are not on the same page.

That translation you have is way off.

See what happens?

They changed the word because it flows better with that theory.

And yes,the dead do come back to life at the second resurrection.there is no conflict there.
But to read a resurrection into rev 20,is to force fit what simply is not there. It HAS to be read into it.
Here is another problem with that theory.

If those before the throne in rev 7 are not martyrs,who are they?
Remember they have dirty robes,like the 5 foolish virgins,and they are in the GT. SO, They are NOT THE pre tribs of 1thes 4.

 

[popeye]

Another problem with the matyrs raised at the end of the GT is that it has to ne assumed they miss all the business if the church in heaven.

They would have to be raised after Jesus returns,defeats the ACs army,and the beast and false prophet are thrown in to the lake of fire.

Not exactly harmonious or plausible

 

[God4me]

He knew everything about them.
"know" means intimacy

"...and mary knew no man"

Means inntimate,not that she had no men as friends or acquaintances

edit;Maybe we are on the same page...if so,sorry about that

When Jesus said He didn't know the foolish virgins, the Greek meaning is, He didn't recognise them as Christians.
They didn't have that intimacy with Jesus at that time, because they were backslidden.

 

[God4me]

Reason that is not true is because the Bridegroom coming at Midnight represents the very end of this world, which is timing when Jesus separates His sheep from the goats per the Matt.25 parable. That's what that closing the door and separation between the five wise and the five foolish represents.

Also, per the parable of the laborers of the field, the 11th hour represents the great tribulation timing. In that symbolic 11th hour is when all ten virgins are sleeping when they wake up being told the Bridegroom is coming.

The problem with your theory is, the marriage feast is during the great tribulation period, Not at the end of the world.
If you people would stay with what the word says, you won't give your own opinions.

 

[God4me]

God4me, where do you see this?

They had oil, (The Holy Spirit ), so Jesus knew they were Christians, He also knew they weren't living for Him at that time, as they were backslidden.

 

[God4me]

The Greek word referenced in this verse for "know" as in "I know you not" is:

Original Word: οἶδα
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eidó
Phonetic Spelling: (i'-do)
Short Definition: I know, remember
Definition: I know, remember, appreciate.
​

The Greek meaning for "I KNOW you not", is, Jesus didn't recognise them as Christians, because they were backslidden.

 

[God4me]

Reason that is not true is because the Bridegroom coming at Midnight represents the very end of this world, which is timing when Jesus separates His sheep from the goats per the Matt.25 parable. That's what that closing the door and separation between the five wise and the five foolish represents.

Also, per the parable of the laborers of the field, the 11th hour represents the great tribulation timing. In that symbolic 11th hour is when all ten virgins are sleeping when they wake up being told the Bridegroom is coming.

If what you say is true, Then you must believe that all backsliders will miss out on heaven, Because all the virgins were Christians, They ALL had oil, [The Holy Spirit].
And you must also believe that half of the Christians are goats.
You must also believe the Church goes through the tribulation period.

Jesus said No one will know the time of His coming, Matt 25: 13, So if it was the end time, The Church would have gone to heaven, come back with Jesus, reign with Him, and we would have know when Jesus came.

The virgins, is talking about the pre trib rapture.

 

[PlainWord]

If what you say is true, Then you must believe that all backsliders will miss out on heaven, Because all the virgins were Christians, They ALL had oil, [The Holy Spirit].
And you must also believe that half of the Christians are goats.
You must also believe the Church goes through the tribulation period.

Jesus said No one will know the time of His coming, Matt 25: 13, So if it was the end time, The Church would have gone to heaven, come back with Jesus, reign with Him, and we would have know when Jesus came.

The virgins, is talking about the pre trib rapture.

Why do so many people miss the meaning of the 10 Virgins? The whole purpose of the parable is to tell us that the Groom (Jesus) doesn't appear as early as the 5 foolish virgins think (Pre-Trib), instead His coming is delayed. The 5 wise virgins had extra oil so that they could wait (post Trib) for a later than expected return.

There is only one return of Christ and when He comes, He comes to reign. He comes after the Great Tribulation (of Israel). The GT of Israel is the all out attack on Israel by the Islamic forces aligned with the King of the North lead by the Man of Sin (AKA AntiChrist). We, the Church, are not appointed to God's Wrath, which comes in response to the GT of Israel. God's Wrath is poured out on the Islamic forces which attacked Israel and to those Tares (Palestinians) which live among the Children of Israel.

The Palestinians are the descendants of Esau (the Brother of Jacob who was called "Israel"). The Bible makes clear that no descendant of Esau will remain alive when Christ returns. Esau of course sold His birthright for a bowl of savory stew and this angered the Lord. It was Esau, the firstborn of Isaac, that should have inherited the Land and should have been the father of God's Chosen People, but Esau traded it away. This is why Esau (Palestinians) and Jacob (Israel) have been contending for the Land of Israel for 4,000 years. But God makes clear He is siding with Jacob. It is Esau (Whom God hated) who are the ones referred to as "those who forsake the Holy Covenant" in Daniel 11 who side with the King of the North. But, I digress.

The Great Tribulation = the Time of Jacob's Trouble. (Only those in Judea are told to flee)
The Wrath of God = God's Revenge against the invading Muslim nations

The Church is not the focus of either of these events. When the ELECT flee Judea after seeing the Abomination of Desolation, they flee to the "mountains" which are the nations. They scatter again just as they did after their Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. Those who don't flee are attacked, the women raped, the children sold into sexual slavery. 2/3 of all Jews in Israel will be killed and 1/3 will remain. When Christ returns, He sends out His angels to gather specifically His ELECT JEWS, the ones who heeded the warning and fled. These are the 144,000. Christ brings with Him those who where beheaded by the Beast, the "Martyrs of Jesus." See Rev 20:4-6 as it is clear.

The Church, sadly, falls away before any of this happens as Paul tells us in 2 Thes 2. Many are deceived into going after false christs when they appear during the "beginnings of sorrows" as Jesus tells us in Matthew 24. Satan wages war against the Church before and during the Great Tribulation of Israel. The Woman (the ELECT JEWS) flee the dragon, so he wages war with her offspring, the Church (Rev 12). Daniel 7 tells us that Satan overcomes the Church. Through his "Little Horn" Satan fights and prevails against the saints right up and until God returns (Dan 7:21-22). This is why Jesus questions if He will find any faith left on earth when He returns (Luk 18).

The "Rapture" which everyone is so fond of discussing only applies to those who are "alive and remaining" after all of this. None of us will be alive to see it or be apart of it. The "Rapture" after the Resurrection. Those of us who died in Christ (or sleep in Christ) return with God, the Father, then those who are ALIVE AND REMAINING are Raptured and meet us in the air as 1 Thes 4 clearly tells us:

...even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but I dare say NONE OF US will be among those who are still alive and remaining. All this nonsense about a Pre-Trib rapture of the Church has to stop. It's the talk of the 5 foolish virgins who didn't bring enough oil and do not have the "patience and faith of the Saints" to wait for the Groom, who has been delayed.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yes. I believe so.

I also believe the 144 k are the fitstfruit Jews,and those gathered in rev 14 are the Jews invited to the wedding.

His first miracle was at a wedding with Jews.

His last miracle is at a wedding with Jews.

I think "you have saved the best for last" is referring to those coming in lastly. They happen to be Jewish.

Ah...!
The first will be last and the last will be first...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

No where in Gods word are the Just destroyed with the wicked.

I'll say this again, though it's so hard to deal with that I don't expect anyone to note it. There is ONE place in the word where God says He will destroy the righteous along with the wicked. In Ezekiel, I think.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I agree with the above. But my point was/is that the "one taken" group is not representing the catching away of the church as so many erroneously claim, but is representing the wicked who are taken by the angels. Another proof of this can be found in Luke's version of the same scripture:

"I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”

“Where, Lord?” they asked.He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

In the scripture above, Jesus says, "One will be taken and the other left." His disciples then ask, "where Lord?" i.e. where are they going to be taken? And the Lord says "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather." That would be a pretty strange response if those who being taken are representing the gathering of the church. But those who are being taken is not representing the gathering of the church. In Jesus response he is referring to an event that takes place at the time that he is descending to the earth to end the age, when all of those kings and their armies are gathered at Armageddon as depicted in Rev.19:11-21

"And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

As Jesus is returning to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom, at the same time an angel will be calling all of the birds/vultures to come and gather together to eat the flesh of all of those people who will be killed by the double-edged sword proceeding from the Lord's mouth, which is figurative for the word of God. The Lord will speak, all those gathered will fall dead and those birds who are gathered will eat their flesh. This is what the Lord was referring to when he said, "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather." The "one taken" group are also represented in the parable in Mt.13 as the weeds, where at the end of the age, the harvesters, who are figurative for angels, go throughout the earth and "first" gather the weeds.

The reason why this doesn't make sense to me that it isn't our gathering is that at the timeframe you see it in, there will not be all this feasting, marrying and partying. After there is massive death, earthquakes, lack of fresh water, etc - there would not be such merrymaking.

 

[popeye]

The reason why this doesn't make sense to me that it isn't our gathering is that at the timeframe you see it in, there will not be all this feasting, marrying and partying. After there is massive death, earthquakes, lack of fresh water, etc - there would not be such merrymaking.

To top it off,Jesus said at the last supper it would be in heaven

 

[popeye]

Hi God4me. Hey, ive read 1Cor.15. Nowhere do i find anyone flitting off to heaven in that scripture. Could you tell me where they came up with such a notion.

Then the entire church misses the marriage supper,because nobody goes to heaven after the GT.

BTW,in acts Jesus " flitters" to heaven,raptured so to speak. Shame on that bible huh?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

They get ushered to safety. Then gathered in rev 14.

The foolish virgins are martyred then found in heaven rev 7.

All Gods family make it to the wedding feast.

Harvest is 4 parts

In Leviticus

This is the first post in this thread that caused the Holy Spirit to zing in me...
It is a comfort to know He is so faithful that if someone needs to be further tested to come out pure because they loved their life too much or were too fond of the world and its things, He will do what needs to be done concerning them. I've met some who quite obviously have the Holy Spirit but who remain so unspritual and very concerned with comfort and their cars and their lawns, etc.

 

[popeye]

Why do so many people miss the meaning of the 10 Virgins? The whole purpose of the parable is to tell us that the Groom (Jesus) doesn't appear as early as the 5 foolish virgins think (Pre-Trib), instead His coming is delayed. The 5 wise virgins had extra oil so that they could wait (post Trib) for a later than expected return.

There is only one return of Christ and when He comes, He comes to reign. He comes after the Great Tribulation (of Israel). The GT of Israel is the all out attack on Israel by the Islamic forces aligned with the King of the North lead by the Man of Sin (AKA AntiChrist). We, the Church, are not appointed to God's Wrath, which comes in response to the GT of Israel. God's Wrath is poured out on the Islamic forces which attacked Israel and to those Tares (Palestinians) which live among the Children of Israel.

The Palestinians are the descendants of Esau (the Brother of Jacob who was called "Israel"). The Bible makes clear that no descendant of Esau will remain alive when Christ returns. Esau of course sold His birthright for a bowl of savory stew and this angered the Lord. It was Esau, the firstborn of Isaac, that should have inherited the Land and should have been the father of God's Chosen People, but Esau traded it away. This is why Esau (Palestinians) and Jacob (Israel) have been contending for the Land of Israel for 4,000 years. But God makes clear He is siding with Jacob. It is Esau (Whom God hated) who are the ones referred to as "those who forsake the Holy Covenant" in Daniel 11 who side with the King of the North. But, I digress.

The Great Tribulation = the Time of Jacob's Trouble. (Only those in Judea are told to flee)
The Wrath of God = God's Revenge against the invading Muslim nations

The Church is not the focus of either of these events. When the ELECT flee Judea after seeing the Abomination of Desolation, they flee to the "mountains" which are the nations. They scatter again just as they did after their Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. Those who don't flee are attacked, the women raped, the children sold into sexual slavery. 2/3 of all Jews in Israel will be killed and 1/3 will remain. When Christ returns, He sends out His angels to gather specifically His ELECT JEWS, the ones who heeded the warning and fled. These are the 144,000. Christ brings with Him those who where beheaded by the Beast, the "Martyrs of Jesus." See Rev 20:4-6 as it is clear.

The Church, sadly, falls away before any of this happens as Paul tells us in 2 Thes 2. Many are deceived into going after false christs when they appear during the "beginnings of sorrows" as Jesus tells us in Matthew 24. Satan wages war against the Church before and during the Great Tribulation of Israel. The Woman (the ELECT JEWS) flee the dragon, so he wages war with her offspring, the Church (Rev 12). Daniel 7 tells us that Satan overcomes the Church. Through his "Little Horn" Satan fights and prevails against the saints right up and until God returns (Dan 7:21-22). This is why Jesus questions if He will find any faith left on earth when He returns (Luk 18).

The "Rapture" which everyone is so fond of discussing only applies to those who are "alive and remaining" after all of this. None of us will be alive to see it or be apart of it. The "Rapture" after the Resurrection. Those of us who died in Christ (or sleep in Christ) return with God, the Father, then those who are ALIVE AND REMAINING are Raptured and meet us in the air as 1 Thes 4 clearly tells us:

...even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but I dare say NONE OF US will be among those who are still alive and remaining. All this nonsense about a Pre-Trib rapture of the Church has to stop. It's the talk of the 5 foolish virgins who didn't bring enough oil and do not have the "patience and faith of the Saints" to wait for the Groom, who has been delayed.

So much reaching here.

So many false conclusions.

You overemphasis the delay into a distorted meaning. Why leave out what was there at the ARRIVAL of the groom?

You have to make your deal fit some war zone. The entire setting is peaceful,normal life.

Oh,and BTW,where do you see horses in that parable?

Looks to me like Jesus comes on a horse,no?

So,we are looking for a coming of a man on a white horse?

The 5 wise obviously went to a bad place with a false Christ.

Oh,wait,wait, that has to be "one taken,one left" with the taken ones going to a bad place.

See what happens with distorting the word?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

If they were backslidden, after they said 'Lord, Lord, open to us', why did the bridegroom say 'verily I say unto you, I know you not'? The door had been shut. If they were Christians, what happened to them? My question is, if a believer misses the rapture, are they given a second chance? Is this what your post is implying? Just trying to understand here.

We are to pray that we will be found worthy to escape the time of testing coming on the whole world. Metal that has been tested, with slag removed, is pure. It has already been tested. Further testing is unnecessary. But metal that hasn't been tested needs more testing.

 

[God4me]

Why do so many people miss the meaning of the 10 Virgins? The whole purpose of the parable is to tell us that the Groom (Jesus) doesn't appear as early as the 5 foolish virgins think (Pre-Trib), instead His coming is delayed. The 5 wise virgins had extra oil so that they could wait (post Trib) for a later than expected return.

There is only one return of Christ and when He comes, He comes to reign. He comes after the Great Tribulation (of Israel). The GT of Israel is the all out attack on Israel by the Islamic forces aligned with the King of the North lead by the Man of Sin (AKA AntiChrist). We, the Church, are not appointed to God's Wrath, which comes in response to the GT of Israel. God's Wrath is poured out on the Islamic forces which attacked Israel and to those Tares (Palestinians) which live among the Children of Israel.

The Palestinians are the descendants of Esau (the Brother of Jacob who was called "Israel"). The Bible makes clear that no descendant of Esau will remain alive when Christ returns. Esau of course sold His birthright for a bowl of savory stew and this angered the Lord. It was Esau, the firstborn of Isaac, that should have inherited the Land and should have been the father of God's Chosen People, but Esau traded it away. This is why Esau (Palestinians) and Jacob (Israel) have been contending for the Land of Israel for 4,000 years. But God makes clear He is siding with Jacob. It is Esau (Whom God hated) who are the ones referred to as "those who forsake the Holy Covenant" in Daniel 11 who side with the King of the North. But, I digress.

The Great Tribulation = the Time of Jacob's Trouble. (Only those in Judea are told to flee)
The Wrath of God = God's Revenge against the invading Muslim nations

The Church is not the focus of either of these events. When the ELECT flee Judea after seeing the Abomination of Desolation, they flee to the "mountains" which are the nations. They scatter again just as they did after their Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. Those who don't flee are attacked, the women raped, the children sold into sexual slavery. 2/3 of all Jews in Israel will be killed and 1/3 will remain. When Christ returns, He sends out His angels to gather specifically His ELECT JEWS, the ones who heeded the warning and fled. These are the 144,000. Christ brings with Him those who where beheaded by the Beast, the "Martyrs of Jesus." See Rev 20:4-6 as it is clear.

The Church, sadly, falls away before any of this happens as Paul tells us in 2 Thes 2. Many are deceived into going after false christs when they appear during the "beginnings of sorrows" as Jesus tells us in Matthew 24. Satan wages war against the Church before and during the Great Tribulation of Israel. The Woman (the ELECT JEWS) flee the dragon, so he wages war with her offspring, the Church (Rev 12). Daniel 7 tells us that Satan overcomes the Church. Through his "Little Horn" Satan fights and prevails against the saints right up and until God returns (Dan 7:21-22). This is why Jesus questions if He will find any faith left on earth when He returns (Luk 18).

The "Rapture" which everyone is so fond of discussing only applies to those who are "alive and remaining" after all of this. None of us will be alive to see it or be apart of it. The "Rapture" after the Resurrection. Those of us who died in Christ (or sleep in Christ) return with God, the Father, then those who are ALIVE AND REMAINING are Raptured and meet us in the air as 1 Thes 4 clearly tells us:

...even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but I dare say NONE OF US will be among those who are still alive and remaining. All this nonsense about a Pre-Trib rapture of the Church has to stop. It's the talk of the 5 foolish virgins who didn't bring enough oil and do not have the "patience and faith of the Saints" to wait for the Groom, who has been delayed.

The 5 wise virgins go up in the pre-trib rapture, To the marriage feast, Which is in heaven during the great tribulation period. So how can the Church be in heaven have the feast, and on earth going through the tribulation at the same time??

The Bible make it clear enough that Jesus comes to take His people to heaven, Then He comes back to reign, [With His peope].
The first, [The pre trib rapture], Jesus doesn't touch down on earth, We meet Him in the air, 1 Thess 4: 17.
The second, [His physical coming to reign], He physically come and touches down on the earth, Rev 1: 7. Rev 19: 11--16.


2 Thess 2: 3, doesn't say there will be a falling away FROM THE FAITH, Does it??, No false teachers have mislead people about it.
The Greek for, "Falling away", Means, "A Departing", [The pre-trib rapture], Then the antichrist can come.

1 Thess 4:14--17, Is the Church age, [Or the end of it], Please note, "Those in Jesus" V 14.
"The dead IN CHRIST", V 16.
"Then we", V17. This is talking about the end of the dispensation of grace, [The Church age].
Then the world goes into the dispensation of wrath, First the devil wrath, then the wrath of God.
The Church isn't appointed to wrath, But to go before it starts. Lk 21: 36. 1 Thes 5: 9.

Nowhere doe the Bible say the Church goes through the tribulation period.

 

[PlainWord]

Then the entire church misses the marriage supper,because nobody goes to heaven after the GT.

BTW,in acts Jesus " flitters" to heaven,raptured so to speak. Shame on that bible huh?

Believers are going to heaven before and during the GT of Israel. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb comes after the GT of Israel.

Daniel says, "when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished."

 

[RickyZ]

But remember, you simply cannot lose your salvation because of what you believe about end times scenerios.

Actually, Christ said that many will turn from Him in the end because they were not prepared for what is coming.

And who is not going to prepare for what is coming?

Those who don't believe they are going to see it.