The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[studier]

We lose fellowship(NOT SALVATION)when we grieve or quench the Spirit...Fallen away and departed from Christ.
1 John 1:9 Is the solution for the Believer.

Human good(quenching the Spirit) Wants to "work" for salvation. Any believer who believes we can lose, walk away, forfeit or maintain salvation has FALLEN AWAY. They need to 1 John 1:9 And come back to the SOLID foundation. They are Out of fellowship with the Spirit who SEALED them.

The loss of fellowship interpretation is one way the Scripture is read. And it's not the only way. What's really an issue is the camp partisanship and the position that those in other camps are out of fellowship or as you take here, the extreme position that those with different interpretations of certain doctrines have fallen away. You may need to rebound for such an allegation.

The in & out interpretation in relation to 1J1:9 is also just that, an interpretation. The walk is very dynamic and acknowledging sins is part of that dynamic walk. IMO the Holy Spirit is well-able to put up with immature Christians and deal with their fleshiness in ways that don't require putting an infant outside and detaching from him every time he errs.

Labeling anyone who interprets work differently is also an issue. In a way these discussions get contentious so fast - again a camp-based/denominational theology issue - that discussion is virtually impossible. Most of the time what I see is anyone who says something about the Christian good work IN salvation is automatically labeled as saying Christian work FOR salvation. There should be more discernment and even a willingness to clarify semantics.

If we're eternally secure based upon faith alone, why do we argue camp partisanship so aggressively so fast? What have we got to lose by just calmly looking at and discussing Scripture? On the other hand, what's the point of all of this if it's not just to sit on the merry-go-round parroting in repetitive arguments the established interpretations of a few key Scriptures debated for centuries? It reminds me of what Paul was dealing with in Corinth, well, my pastor says...

 

[TrustandObey]

just imagine, if we lost salvation....... We would be asking the evangelist, "who is this Jesus you speak of?"

Why would this be so?

 

[studier]

Bible class 101 for them in the Kingdom

I can assure you there are a few here that are way past 101 who can deal with Scripture at depths beyond where many others are here. One of the things that goes on in spiritual growth is that many do not sit in a single camp all their days and so gain extensive exposure to the exegetical work of other camps. In the process they begin to see that there can be some sound reasoning outside and the reasoners don't have red faces and horns as they were alleged to have - not even under faces of light.

Most act like they've got it all figured out. It's an act. The further past 101 it becomes clearer that it's an act.

 

[TrustandObey]

Think of that school of thought that insists we must work to retain our salvation.

Once again, who is making these claims?
Other then yourself?
You and others have made up this boogie man to fear.

 

[studier]

This is the problem. when you are working. You have to always convince yourself you are good enough..

This is actually not true. When we are working with the Lord as commanded, we know our walk with Him is dynamic and that He is filling us where we may lack.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Why would this be so?

well if you lost faith and now deny Jesus.. you would ask just that

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Once again, who is making these claims?
Other then yourself?
You and others have made up this boogie man to fear.

When one claims they must do this or that to maintain salvation. or salvation can be lost based on what a person does or does not do.

then that is exactly what they are saying.

I am amazed that people can not see this basic truth

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

This is actually not true. When we are working with the Lord as commanded, we know our walk with Him is dynamic and that He is filling us where we may lack.

Actually it is true

when you are working to make sure you do not lose your salvation. you are forced to convince yourself you are good enough.

Or you must deny what your believe

 

[Kroogz]

I can assure you there are a few here that are way past 101 who can deal with Scripture at depths beyond where many others are here. One of the things that goes on in spiritual growth is that many do not sit in a single camp all their days and so gain extensive exposure to the exegetical work of other camps. In the process they begin to see that there can be some sound reasoning outside and the reasoners don't have red faces and horns as they were alleged to have - not even under faces of light.

Most act like they've got it all figured out. It's an act. The further past 101 it becomes clearer that it's an act.

So, I missed it.....

What are the exact works we must do? What is the exact amount of works? How many days,months or years must we endure?

Salvation and eternal security IS bible class 101. So this must be very easy for you to give us your way to my salvation.

 

[studier]

Actually it is true

when you are working to make sure you do not lose your salvation. you are forced to convince yourself you are good enough.

Or you must deny what your believe

It's obviously true to you and to others who interpret as you do. But it's subjective truth.

There is another option (if not a few other ones). We can be working to maintain what our Lord commands us to work to maintain. And actually, "maintain" is not a good word because the Christian Spiritual Life in Christ in Spirit is one of growth to productivity which is advancing not maintaining.

In knowing what the Author of our Salvation commands and doing what He is commanding us to do - what His Plan of Salvation requires us to do - He is maturing us as sons. He has provided the Plan and the Process that works perfectly from start to finish. After we enter into it by His grace through faith, which is also obedience, then He requires us to live in continuous and growing Faith-Obedience under Grace doing the Good Works we are newly created to do under His Grace and guidance and enabling capability.

 

[Kroogz]

When one claims they must do this or that to maintain salvation. or salvation can be lost based on what a person does or does not do.

then that is exactly what they are saying.

I am amazed that people can not see this basic truth

Satan has 3 goals with mankind.

God abandoned Israel.

Unbelievers can't believe His Gospel.

Believer's can't grow in His Grace and knowledge. Did God REALLY save you?


What are the 3 most debated things on any christian forum?

 

[studier]

So, I missed it.....

What are the exact works we must do? What is the exact amount of works? How many days,months or years must we endure?

Salvation and eternal security IS bible class 101. So this must be very easy for you to give us your way to my salvation.

It's kind of up to Him, isn't it? Rhetoric aside, it seems kind of simple:

If you're the thief on the cross next to Him, your endurance is not too lengthy albeit maybe very painful and trying but you believed the one who promised you'll soon be in paradise with Him, so that focused mindset may make the pain more endurable.

If you're a Christian at 10 then you may have many more years of living and growing as a Christian than one who entered at 40 and you may have to deal with the Lord doing what He wills with what is His and giving the one who entered late as much or more than He gives you from what is His.

Bottom line, you remain a Christian and do not renounce the Christ/King. If you go astray for a time and come back, it's up to Him to determine. If you fall away and are not coming back, it's also up to Him to determine. If you never believed, it's up to Him to determine. If you're advancing to productivity, it seems clear there are varying degrees of productivity, which He will also be determining. It's also very clear that we enter as experiential infants and grow to an experiential adulthood. Within this process things and others are not always what they seem to be.

This strict either/or mentality in some areas of Scripture tends to end up in eisegesis of Scripture.

Rather than just being a camp soldier, play this out with Scripture. Seriously, what have you got to lose? If you think you have fellowship with Him to lose or that you fall away by considering and reasoning and asking Him about other views, then your system doesn't sound as secure as you suggest it is. Does He not expect questions and is He not able to answer questions without turning His back on you?

BTW, some pastors determined along the way to be very authoritative. To a point this can be a good thing. Then as the years advanced they began to teach not to put them on pedestals. Then as the years advanced, they even admitted very solemnly that no man can learn this Book in a lifetime.

Relax a bit. This is part of what being secure in all about.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So, I missed it.....

What are the exact works we must do? What is the exact amount of works? How many days,months or years must we endure?

Salvation and eternal security IS bible class 101. So this must be very easy for you to give us your way to my salvation.

I asked him this awhile ago. Had to ask him multiple times. Prety much we must do whatever God commands

If you're a Christian, then whatever God commands, like Phil2:12-13. If you're not so doing, then maybe you never believed or have apostatized or maybe will live in a pup tent in eternity. Some more work in the Text may draw this out.

Based upon your prior denigration re: cooperating with God and your fear of getting deeper into the language and structure of the Text with someone who may well be able to note potential errors and discrepancies in your work, it has to remain a mystery who you are in Christ. Maybe you walked an aisle 40 years ago and were promised a mansion for doing so. There are many possibilities these days.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It's obviously true to you and to others who interpret as you do. But it's subjective truth.

Subjective truth?

So if we must DO to KEEP.

then it is subjective truth that the person who does keep and the person who does not loses?

hence the person who does worked to earn his (whatever it was he worked so hard to keep)?

I think you are just hiding the truth inside. because you feel guilty yourself?

There is another option (if not a few other ones). We can be working to maintain what our Lord commands us to work to maintain. And actually, "maintain" is not a good word because the Christian Spiritual Life in Christ in Spirit is one of growth to productivity which is advancing not maintaining.

In knowing what the Author of our Salvation commands and doing what He is commanding us to do - what His Plan of Salvation requires us to do - He is maturing us as sons. He has provided the Plan and the Process that works perfectly from start to finish. After we enter into it by His grace through faith, which is also obedience, then He requires us to live in continuous and growing Faith-Obedience under Grace doing the Good Works we are newly created to do under His Grace and guidance and enabling capability.

Alot of work involved here. Yet you decry you are trying to work.

I do what God commands out of appreciation for what God gave me (life) and because he made me into a new creature

you do it to "cooperate" with God to maintain your salvation.

huge difference between us

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Satan has 3 goals with mankind.

God abandoned Israel.

Unbelievers can't believe His Gospel.

Believer's can't grow in His Grace and knowledge. Did God REALLY save you?


What are the 3 most debated things on any christian forum?

pretty much in all of history is these 3 things

 

[studier]

I think you are just hiding the truth inside. because you feel guilty yourself?

Is this actually a question?

Alot of work involved here. Yet you decry you are trying to work.

I do what God commands out of appreciation for what God gave me (life) and because he made me into a new creature

you do it to "cooperate" with God to maintain your salvation.

huge difference between us

I don't decry I am working. I was created to work, and I find working as a new creation to be very natural. In fact, I never found working to be as enjoyable as it is to be working together with Him always seeking to do His will.

Whether out of appreciation or out of love or out of a combination of these and other things including a sense of duty to our Creator and Savior because He is the ultimate and absolute authority over everyone and everything, at the end of it all you're working, and this is a good thing. And none of us is the judge of what drives others. IOW, I may have a stronger sense of duty and responsibility than you do but this does not mean I do not appreciate Him or do not love Him. In fact, I think we can make a Scriptural case for love and duty being overlapped to such a degree that they may seem synonymous (like Faith-Obedience). And appreciation can be appreciating the fact that He is God and functioning in a way that completely believes this while learning and growing under His guidance and enabling capability to be increasing from glory to glory, pursuing the high calling of God in Christ Jesus, being conformed to the likeness of His Son and my First-Born Brother and Lord King.

It's those who would keep we new creatures in Christ Jesus from working that seem to me to be the problem.

 

[Kroogz]

It's kind of up to Him, isn't it?

This strict either/or mentality in some areas of Scripture tends to end up in eisegesis of Scripture.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.

John 10:28
and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Rom 8:39
nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 John 5:13~~These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[studier]

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.

John 10:28
and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Rom 8:39
nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 John 5:13~~These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Dueling Scriptures is not that productive, but here you go:

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice is not doing righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love is not loving his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him? (1 Jn. 3:10-17 NKJ)

There's an awful lot of Scripture involved in the context of any and all verses we throw on screen. If we want to know we have eternal life according to 1John for example, even 1J5:13 you posted begins with "these things" meaning we can't know we have eternal life in the context of that verse apart from looking at all those things John explained that he applies to that verse.

Please. You know this. Proof-texting does not solve the issue.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Is this actually a question?

An observation. Can not explain it any other way.. Can you give me another reason?

I don't decry I am working. I was created to work, and I find working as a new creation to be very natural. In fact, I never found working to be as enjoyable as it is to be working together with Him always seeking to do His will.

We agree 100 percent on this.

Do we agree on why?

eph 2: 10. those created in Christ Jesus having been saved completely by grace through faith of the person who is saved. not of works. will walk in these works. because they are a new creature?

I question you agree with this totally?

Whether out of appreciation or out of love or out of a combination of these and other things including a sense of duty to our Creator and Savior because He is the ultimate and absolute authority over everyone and everything, at the end of it all you're working, and this is a good thing. And none of us is the judge of what drives others. IOW, I may have a stronger sense of duty and responsibility than you do but this does not mean I do not appreciate Him or do not love Him. In fact, I think we can make a Scriptural case for love and duty being overlapped to such a degree that they may seem synonymous (like Faith-Obedience). And appreciation can be appreciating the fact that He is God and functioning in a way that completely believes this while learning and growing under His guidance and enabling capability to be increasing from glory to glory, pursuing the high calling of God in Christ Jesus, being conformed to the likeness of His Son and my First-Born Brother and Lord King.

It's those who would keep we new creatures in Christ Jesus from working that seem to me to be the problem.

again, If your doing this to keep your salvation. or to as you put it co-operate with God to ensure you are saved eternally.

Then you can say you do it for the reasons stated. But I can not buy it.. Because your salvation depends on you doing these things

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Dueling Scriptures is not that productive, but here you go:

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice is not doing righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love is not loving his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him? (1 Jn. 3:10-17 NKJ)

There's an awful lot of Scripture involved in the context of any and all verses we throw on screen. If we want to know we have eternal life according to 1John for example, even 1J5:13 you posted begins with "these things" meaning we can't know we have eternal life in the context of that verse apart from looking at all those things John explained that he applies to that verse.

Please. You know this. Proof-texting does not solve the issue.

again,

when you put two verses that do not comply or agree with each other. or when they appose each other. like you have done here.

Then you need to make sure you change your view. so the scripture is complete and not against itself.