The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”
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I shall lose none
Period.
When you try to make Jesus say anythign else. You fail to harmonize.
when you say things like the following.
" and in JN 6:39 “I shall lose none” may refer to those who persevere or do not stray, who stand firm, who endure, who hold firmly, etc."
You have added to the word of God. Again, Just take Jesus at his word.
John 6 gives us the answer
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
See. Jesus gives us who these people are in the text.
1. They come to him
2. They believe in him
3. They were given to Jesus by the father
4. The see and believe.
what will be given to these people
1. They will never hunger
2. They will never thirst
3. they will never be cast out
4. They will never be lost
5. They will be raised on the last day
6. they have eternal life
7. again, they will be raised on the last day (A double promise)
so no, you have failed to make the passages harmonize
Period.
When you try to make Jesus say anythign else. You fail to harmonize.
when you say things like the following.
" and in JN 6:39 “I shall lose none” may refer to those who persevere or do not stray, who stand firm, who endure, who hold firmly, etc."
You have added to the word of God. Again, Just take Jesus at his word.
John 6 gives us the answer
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
See. Jesus gives us who these people are in the text.
1. They come to him
2. They believe in him
3. They were given to Jesus by the father
4. The see and believe.
what will be given to these people
1. They will never hunger
2. They will never thirst
3. they will never be cast out
4. They will never be lost
5. They will be raised on the last day
6. they have eternal life
7. again, they will be raised on the last day (A double promise)
so no, you have failed to make the passages harmonize
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Saying that no TRUE Christian ever departs from CHRIST and the FAITH is an example of the "NO TRUE SCOTSMAN FALLACY." and is just more circular reasoning. The fact that an abundance of scriptures warns their believers NOT to fall away shows that it is possible. Also that was the view of the early Ante-Nicene Church including those who actually knew the Apostles. This alone does not constitute conclusive proof which can only be found in the scriptures but it provides historic evidence.
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1 John 3: 18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
Welcome to CC. Although you did not come in very well. pone passage of scripture shows that what you are trying to get us to see is not true.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
Welcome to CC. Although you did not come in very well. pone passage of scripture shows that what you are trying to get us to see is not true.
It appears GWH is growing his allies in all these new accounts.
And each one is as mistaken as he is.
Keep your eyes on Christ. That which pushes false teaching are a distraction. Maybe they even mean to be.
One thing I've learned over many years. Errant teachers that refuse correction are a lesson. A parable in themselves.
God leads us to understanding.
And each one is as mistaken as he is.
Keep your eyes on Christ. That which pushes false teaching are a distraction. Maybe they even mean to be.
One thing I've learned over many years. Errant teachers that refuse correction are a lesson. A parable in themselves.
God leads us to understanding.
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@Everlasting-Grace
I saved this from a post in, The Happy Thread.
God is everywhere and in everything. As he tells us. We sit and argue over his word and our understanding of his teachings to us. However, in truth, God is alive in us all.
We're quibbling over our intention to prove we know what he's saying. And that others agree means we're right. Or, they don't know what they're talking about. It's humans that wrote the book after all.
Even calling a holy Spirit by a gender pronoun is a human thing to do.
While all that exists is it's own testament. And God within speaks his own good news just by being there.
I saved this from a post in, The Happy Thread.
God is everywhere and in everything. As he tells us. We sit and argue over his word and our understanding of his teachings to us. However, in truth, God is alive in us all.
We're quibbling over our intention to prove we know what he's saying. And that others agree means we're right. Or, they don't know what they're talking about. It's humans that wrote the book after all.
Even calling a holy Spirit by a gender pronoun is a human thing to do.
While all that exists is it's own testament. And God within speaks his own good news just by being there.
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This is VERY simple. We ALL will fall away and depart from Christ. We do it every single time we grieve or quench the Spirit.
We do it with our human good and we do it with sin. Evil and sin........The very, very deceptive one is EVIL(human good.)
We lose fellowship(NOT SALVATION)when we grieve or quench the Spirit...Fallen away and departed from Christ.
1 John 1:9 Is the solution for the Believer.
Human good(quenching the Spirit) Wants to "work" for salvation. Any believer who believes we can lose, walk away, forfeit or maintain salvation has FALLEN AWAY. They need to 1 John 1:9 And come back to the SOLID foundation. They are Out of fellowship with the Spirit who SEALED them.
We do it with our human good and we do it with sin. Evil and sin........The very, very deceptive one is EVIL(human good.)
We lose fellowship(NOT SALVATION)when we grieve or quench the Spirit...Fallen away and departed from Christ.
1 John 1:9 Is the solution for the Believer.
Human good(quenching the Spirit) Wants to "work" for salvation. Any believer who believes we can lose, walk away, forfeit or maintain salvation has FALLEN AWAY. They need to 1 John 1:9 And come back to the SOLID foundation. They are Out of fellowship with the Spirit who SEALED them.
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1 Corinthians 3 sets out the big picture:
9For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
9For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
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This is the problem. when you are working. You have to always convince yourself you are good enough..
That's why history shows they go after those who preach we can never be good enough..
its also why they crucified Christ.
but even they can still repent (many did) and still come to salvation
That's why history shows they go after those who preach we can never be good enough..
its also why they crucified Christ.
but even they can still repent (many did) and still come to salvation
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