The Great Blessing Of Election Unto Salvation

[CS1]

So...one can be said to be chosen before the foundation of the world, it's according to God's purpose, but not be elected?
And I'm not assuming anything. I'm asking questions. That's someone trying not to assume.

God fully know who the elect is we do not until we have been saved as Paul went on to say




" In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him."



Those who get hung up on " elect" miss the truth of all can be saved.

 

[Cameron143]

People are chosen before the foundation of the world. The context is spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. Why do Calvinists always make the context about them?

They are chosen to receive these things, yes. And those blessings are only found in Christ.
I couldn't tell you what Calvinist do.

 

[Cameron143]

God fully know who the elect is we do not until we have been saved as Paul went on to say




" In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him."



Those who get hung up on " elect" miss the truth of all can be saved.

If it is as you say, why is it that for the majority of history God's word was not made available to the majority of people? Since faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, how was salvation available to all these people?

 

[John146]

If it is as you say, why is it that for the majority of history God's word was not made available to the majority of people? Since faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, how was salvation available to all these people?

Romans 1...

 

[Cameron143]

Romans 1...

Sure, they can know God exists, but the word of God is necessary to faith. For most of history, most people did not have access to it. So how was it possible for people groups who never had access to the word of God or ever heard of Jesus able to be saved?

 

[SomeDisciple]

If it is as you say, why is it that for the majority of history God's word was not made available to the majority of people

I imagine that a lot of people think this and wonder the same questions. I do not believe this to be an accurate picture of history. I think the history included in the old testament is a limited history of what God has done that focuses mostly on Jesus and how God interacted with his lineage and ultimately How many prophets there were in the ancient-Era, what they did, and who they talked to, and what they said to them is peripheral.

 

[Cameron143]

I imagine that a lot of people think this and wonder the same questions. I do not believe this to be an accurate picture of history. I think the history included in the old testament is a limited history of what God has done that focuses mostly on Jesus and how God interacted with his lineage and ultimately How many prophets there were in the ancient-Era, what they did, and who they talked to, and what they said to them is peripheral.

What I said is true for nearly every generation from the time of Christ. The printing press wasn't even invented until the 1500's. It still isn't translated into every language. The fact is, for the majority of history, there were large numbers of people who never heard the Gospel or had access to it.
Now I do believe God comes to some individuals directly, but this isn't His prescribed manner.

 

[CS1]

If it is as you say, why is it that for the majority of history, God's word was not made available to the majority of people? Since faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, how was salvation available to all these people?

LOL, if it's what I say? God, from the beginning, walked with man and talked with him. Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses spoke the word of God. Then, through JJudges and the Prophets. You can't have New without the Old.

FYI, Obedience was accounted to Abraham as Righteousness. Hebrews chapter 11:8-9 says it was faith.


8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

The word of God has always been as John Chapter 1:1-2 says :

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Also Roman Chapter 1:18-22 states:



18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools

 

[Cameron143]

LOL, if it's what I say? God, from the beginning, walked with man and talked with him. Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses spoke the word of God. Then, through JJudges and the Prophets. You can't have New without the Old.

FYI, Obedience was accounted to Abraham as Righteousness. Hebrews chapter 11:8-9 says it was faith.


8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

The word of God has always been as John Chapter 1:1-2 says :

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Also Roman Chapter 1:18-22 states:



18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools

All of this is what makes man accountable before God, but it does nothing to save him.

Do you believe that the word of God is necessary for salvation?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Iconoclast said:
Then we find out in Romans 11 how elect gentiles are grafted in, for unbelieving Israelites.

I just read through Romans 11 again.

Where are you reading the phrase "elect Gentiles" in this chapter that you've referenced here? I'm not seeing it.

It does not use the term born again, sanctified, justified, redeemed , foreknown, adopted, or anything else either.

Does that mean these items do not apply unless they are listed in every verse??? I do not see the term trinity, so is that at issue?

I was going strictly by what you said.

You said, "THEN WE FIND OUT in Romans 11..." (perhaps you intended something other than this?)



So, this sounds to me like you are suggesting that... well, for example... let me put it like this...

... imagine I was somehow stranded on a remote island one day after having become saved [however you want to say it], not yet having read much of the Bible. After days of foraging for something to eat, I spot a piece of paper wedged down in the greenery. So I pull it out and lo, and behold, someone who'd been here before had lost one leaf of their copy of the Bible: the page having Romans 11. So I being reading it.

By the time I'm done reading the entire chapter of Romans 11, would I have "FOUND OUT" anything about [the term you used-->] "elect Gentiles" (in this text)?

Because that is what you made it sound like... that I would (and that "we" do), by your saying, "THEN WE FIND OUT in Romans 11..."


Or, is it the case that you have read that particular phrase back INTO this text from another part of the Bible that the stranded-on-an-island person didn't happen to have access to? Or, some other explanation (like you seem to be presenting now... that the actual PHRASE ITSELF is nowhere to be "found" in Scripture, and certainly not "in Romans 11," but that the CONCEPT is ). What say you?







____________

And, by the way, do you happen to have an answer to my other question: what do you believe Romans 11:22b means where it says, "...otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

Like I said, many people teach this verse is referencing the "loss of [an individual's] salvation"

(which I do not believe is the intended meaning of this text / context...).





It's fine if you don't care to engage further on these. = )

 

[CS1]

All of this is what makes man accountable before God, but it does nothing to save him.

Do you believe that the word of God is necessary for salvation?

Jesus is the word of God and is the only way to salvation.

 

[John146]

Sure, they can know God exists, but the word of God is necessary to faith. For most of history, most people did not have access to it. So how was it possible for people groups who never had access to the word of God or ever heard of Jesus able to be saved?

They not need the gospel preached to them. If one has a belief in God the creator, I believe God will send them more light. Besides, at one time in history, the gospel had gone out into all the world, and was preached to every creature under heaven.

 

[Cameron143]

Jesus is the word of God and is the only way to salvation.

Thanks for the discussion. Blessings.

 

[Cameron143]

They not need the gospel preached to them. If one has a belief in God the creator, I believe God will send them more light. Besides, at one time in history, the gospel had gone out into all the world, and was preached to every creature under heaven.

Yes. That happened in the first century. And everyone knows of the existence of God through creation and conscience. But huge portions of humanity throughout history did not hear the gospel or know about Jesus. God simply didn't send the gospel to all people groups in all times. To suggest that He has is simply to deny the reality of history.
Who went to Nineveh before Jonah? What of all the generations before Jonah who never heard from God?

 

[John146]

Yes. That happened in the first century. And everyone knows of the existence of God through creation and conscience. But huge portions of humanity throughout history did not hear the gospel or know about Jesus. God simply didn't send the gospel to all people groups in all times. To suggest that He has is simply to deny the reality of history.
Who went to Nineveh before Jonah? What of all the generations before Jonah who never heard from God?

That falls on the shoulders of the church. The church, which includes you and me, has done a poor job preaching the gospel at home and to the uttermost parts of the earth.

 

[Cameron143]

That falls on the shoulders of the church. The church, which includes you and me, has done a poor job preaching the gospel at home and to the uttermost parts of the earth.

While this is true, God can send His messenger anytime and anywhere. He hasn't always done so.

 

[Iconoclast]

I was going strictly by what you said.

You said, "THEN WE FIND OUT in Romans 11..." (perhaps you intended something other than this?)

So, this sounds to me like you are suggesting that... well, for example... let me put it like this...

... imagine I was somehow stranded on a remote island one day after having become saved [however you want to say it], not yet having read much of the Bible. After days of foraging for something to eat, I spot a piece of paper wedged down in the greenery. So I pull it out and lo, and behold, someone who'd been here before had lost one leaf of their copy of the Bible: the page having Romans 11. So I being reading it.

By the time I'm done reading the entire chapter of Romans 11, would I have "FOUND OUT" anything about [the term you used-->] "elect Gentiles" (in this text)?

Because that is what you made it sound like... that I would (and that "we" do), by your saying, "THEN WE FIND OUT in Romans 11..."


Or, is it the case that you have read that particular phrase back INTO this text from another part of the Bible that the stranded-on-an-island person didn't happen to have access to? Or, some other explanation (like you seem to be presenting now... that the actual PHRASE ITSELF is nowhere to be "found" in Scripture, and certainly not "in Romans 11," but that the CONCEPT is ). What say you?

This format leaves "holes" in the discussion.
The biblical teaching of election and predestination has already been established in Romans 8,9, 10,. It carries over. rom8:28-39.

Now take a few minutes, read these three chapters several times. See the flow of thought. Then you will understand that the gentiles who are now grafted are part of the election of grace. It is all the chapters together that open up the teaching. This is not a one verse kind of answers all.

The gentiles are used to provoke Israel.
65 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.





____________

 

[Iconoclast]

This format leaves "holes" in the discussion.
The biblical teaching of election and predestination has already been established in Romans 8,9, 10,. It carries over. rom8:28-39.

Now take a few minutes, read these three chapters several times. See the flow of thought. Then you will understand that the gentiles who are now grafted are part of the election of grace. It is all the chapters together that open up the teaching. This is not a one verse kind of answers all.

The gentiles are used to provoke Israel.
65 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

 

[homwardbound]

Hopefully

“what could possibly go wrong with this???”

paul warns what can go wrong later in the same letter to the same people

“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; and walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-7‬ ‭

Its just that many remove that part

For whatever reason, people want to hide sin, why???????????
Could it relate to Adam and Eve, as he took Eve and went and hid, Afraid? of Death
Then seeing John 16:33 Jesus overcame death for us, as this world stays focused on the nasty nines and dirty dozen, where there is no life ever there. That God by Son took care of for us to now enter his throne of grace with praise and confidence, to see in thankfulness all sin now by Son taken out of the way for us to be given new life in his risen Son's life?

growing up in trust to God, to see how by trusting God not giving up, one will let go of stuff they know is not good for them to continue in, if, anyone is caught up under a yoke of bondage (Under Law DIY), that is easy to get out from underneath it, yet not easy as the flesh grasp, can and has effects on people, to keep them in it, in any particular sin and not be humble in it, Guilt and pride takes people for a ride as if a "Betty better than you" person (Luke 18:9-14) read that and see who gets justified by God, and who by Man, man justifies.
Under Law verses holding up Law, there is a gigantic difference.
There is not wanting to sin, and sinning, the not want to, sin and sins anyways, not wanting to is repentance to God, between that person and God, yet could be between you and other people and not God just other people, which is not good in the long haul either. Yet, since that person continues to want to know God and do what God wants and sees they can't, not perfectly anyways, will come to see the perfect reason why Son came here to earth to die once for us all born of flesh, to save us in his risen Life for us to have new life in God's Spirit and Truth given by Son to us all in the Bible, and these, that continue in belief to God, even though still sin (Not wanting to, yet do) will leave those things eventually behind them and stop them and remain humble in stopping sin, taking no credit for doing it in themselves ever again. God gets all the credit or it is not from God is it?

 

[Burn1986]

We all know the “elect/ predestined” verses (duh). But why fixate on that? What good does that do when you’re praying for a breakthrough for someone or yourself?

Of course most people aren’t praying, much less praying for a breakthrough, much less praying, much less going to God, much less thinking about God, much less…