Systematic Bible Study

PaulThomson · Saturday at 8:02 AM

GWH said:

Eph 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus you, the ones once being (ὄντες, ontes, present indicative participle) far off are/were made (ἐγενήθητε, egenEthEthe, aorist passive deponent indcative) nigh by the blood of Christ.
νυνὶ δὲ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ὑμεῖς οἵ ποτε ὄντες μακρὰν ἐγγὺς ἐγενήθητε ἐν τῷ αἵματι τοῦ Χριστοῦ

Eph 2:14 For he is ( ἐστιν, estin, present indicative) our peace, the one after making (ποιήσας, poiEsas, aorist active participle) both one, and after breaking down (λύσας, lusas, aorist active participle) the middle wall of partition between us;
Αὐτὸς γάρ ἐστιν ἡ εἰρήνη ἡμῶν ὁ ποιήσας τὰ ἀμφότερα ἓν καὶ τὸ μεσότοιχον τοῦ φραγμοῦ λύσας

Eph 2:15 After abolishing (καταργήσας, katargEsas, aorist active participle) in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; in order that (ἵνα, hina ) he should make (κτίσῃ, ktisEi, aorist active subjunctive) in himself of twain one new man, while making (ποιῶν, poiOn, present active participle) peace;
τήν ἔχθραν ἐν τῇ σαρκί αὐτοῦ τὸν νόμον τῶν ἐντολῶν ἐν δόγμασιν καταργήσας ἵνα τοὺς δύο κτίσῃ ἐν ἑαὐτῷ εἰς ἕνα καινὸν ἄνθρωπον ποιῶν εἰρήνην

Eph 2:16 And so that (ἵνα, hina) he might reconcile (ἀποκαταλλάξῃ, apokatallaxEi, aorist active sunjunctive) both unto God in one body by the cross, after slaying (ἀποκτείνας, apokteinas, aorist active participle) the enmity in/by means of these things (ἐν αὐτῷ, en autOi) :
καὶ ἀποκαταλλάξῃ τοὺς ἀμφοτέρους ἐν ἑνὶ σώματι τῷ θεῷ διὰ τοῦ σταυροῦ ἀποκτείνας τὴν ἔχθραν ἐν αὐτῷ

Eph 2:17 And after coming (ἐλθὼν, elthOn, aorist active participle) he preached (εὐηγγελίσατο, euEggelisatO, aorist active indicative) peace to/for you (ὑμῖν, humin, dative plural), to /for the far off ones (τοῖς μακρὰν, tois makran, dative plural) , and to/for the near ones (τοῖς ἐγγύς, tois eggus, dative plural).
καὶ ἐλθὼν εὐηγγελίσατο εἰρήνην ὑμῖν τοῖς μακρὰν καὶ τοῖς ἐγγύς·

My paraphrase of what I think the Greek text is saying -

But now in Christ Jesus you, those at one time being far off from God are made near by means of the blood of Christ.
After making the two one, and after breaking down the dividing wall between us, He is now our peace-maker.
After abolishing within his own flesh the enmity-maker between Jew and Gentile, even the commandments contained in the old covenant ordinances - so that he would make in Himself of both one new man, making peace at the same time, and so that he would reconcile both to God in a single body through the cross, after slaying the enmity-maker by these means - and after coming/appearing in His risen glory, he preached peace for/between you Gentiles and the Jews, for/between the ones previously far off from Him and the ones previously near to Him.

1. The present participle describes an action or state that is so at the same time as its main governing verb, so "while -ing".
The aorist participle describes and action or state that happened before the time of its main governing verb, so "after -ing".
2. The blood of Jesus deals equally with the sins of both Jews and Gentiles, bringing both equally near to God.
3. There is a contrast between peace and enmity. Jesus is our peace where the commandments contained in the Old Covenant ordinances had been a dividing wall of enmity. Peace is used to imply peace-maker. And enmity stands likewise for enmity-maker.
4. Jesus was physically a Jew, but also physically a Gentile. he had inherited genetic aspects from both sides.
5. Jesus lived embodying this distinction between Jews and Gentiles. He was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. He lived by Jewish customs. He identified with Jews and kept the Jewish Law because of His Jewish side, and He identified with and fellowshipped with Gentiles because of His Gentile side.
5. He died while both these sides were distinct from one another within Him, but He rose no longer embodying this distinction removed, as a single second Adam, recognising in His body only the human race.
6. The dative cases in v. 17 could be understood as for rather than to, so that Paul is speaking of peace for the Gentiles and Jews relationally, peace with each other, rather than peace with God for Jews, and peace with God for the Gentiles individually. A double entendre could be intended here, including both senses.

GWH · Saturday at 9:08 AM

PaulThomson said:

I thought about including verses 16 and 17, so it is good you did that. Is the Greek another long sentence like Paul wrote in the first chapter?

I don't know if you have noticed that I also am sponsoring a systematic study of the doctrine of election on the Hermeneutics thread, so of course you are welcome to participate in that discussion if the topic interests you.

So far in Ephesians we have encountered what might be called God's peace plan. "In Christ" or Christianity is God’s bridge uniting everyone by breaching the barrier that He built to separate them until His purpose of providing Messiah by means of the Hebrew-Israeli-Jewish culture/history was accomplished, which truth is indicated by Paul in 1Tim. 2:3-4.

When Judaism was reformed by Jesus and his apostles, Paul taught (in Rom. 2:28-29, 4:16-17 & Gal. 3:29) that what matters is not the religion of our parents, but whether each of us has faith like Abraham in the one true God. A spiritual Jew loves God (Deut. 6:4-5), a true Christian loves God and humanity (Matt. 22:37-40), and a genuine Muslim serves God by cooperating with His plan of salvation (Matt. 24:45 & 25:21).

In a way, theists can be Jewish, Christian and Muslim, because Christianity is God’s solution/plan for peace in the world (Eph. 2:11-22).
The purpose of Judaism was to provide the heritage for Messiah for the benefit of all people (Rom. 3:21-31, 9:4-5a, Isa. 42:1-6, Gen. 22:18, Deut. 9:5-6), and the intent of Islam per the Qur’an in Surah 2:89 was “confirming” God’s previous revelations to the Jews and Christians (the OT & NT). When Jews became Messianic, Paul and Peter agreed that they could follow the old Jewish customs that did not contradict faith in Jesus as Lord (Acts 15:5-29 & Gal. 2:15-16). Because everything good and true is from God (Jam. 1:27), accepting Jesus as Messiah does not mean rejecting what is good and true in one’s pre-Christian experience or culture.

PaulThomson · Saturday at 1:12 PM

GWH said:

If God is a God of truth, why would He pretend we are more righteous than we actually are? Why would He pretend we are credited with all of Jesus' righteousnesses, when we did not do His righteousnesses? Why would God need to pretend that?

GWH · Saturday at 2:00 PM

PaulThomson said:

Imputation is not synonymous with pretense but rather it is actually becoming one with Christ and his righteousness.
God's standard is perfection, but because such is not actually achieved during earthly sanctification,
we would never actually qualify for heaven unless we were deemed to actually share the righteousness of Christ.
I trust that after translating Romans 2 & 3 you actually see/agree with this meaning, which is the crux of the Gospel.

PaulThomson · Monday at 12:02 AM

GWH said:

Would you agree that the absence of sin is perfect righteousness God is requiring, and since the blood of Jesus washes away all sin, that in itself makes us perfectly righteous. Would you agree that there is no need to be exactly like Jesus to be perfectly righteous. A child can be perfectly righteous without having all the same attributes of an adult.

I agree that "Imputation is not synonymous with pretence". But what exactly do you envision the righteousness of God/Christ to be that is credited to us?
1. The same kind of righteousness as God/Christ has?
2. The kind of righteousness Christ requires?
3. All the righteous deeds done by God/Christ throughout eternity?
4. Something else?

GWH · Monday at 5:52 AM

PaulThomson said:

My opinion is that absence of sin is caused by the presence of the HS and that demon hate is exorcised by the filling of the HS.

I envision the righteousness of Christ that God requires to be the fruit of the HS, summarized as love and manifested by loving deeds.
Such righteousness will be achieved in eternity future because of lessons learned while sinners during earthly past.

GWH · 2025-05-13T05:49:15-0400

The next pericope is one complete thought that brings us to the end of chapter two.

EPH 2:18-22 – “For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.”

“For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.” - through him = in Christ = by one Spirit, and access to the Father means spiritual sonship and salvation, as in Rom. 8:1-2 & 14-17
“Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people” – you refers to Gentiles, and God’s people refers to the Jews, who during the OT dispensation were separated by the barrier mentioned in v.14; fellow citizens = the one new man in v.15
“and members of God’s household” – the analogy of one government is augmented by that of one family
“built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets” – the apostles preached the Gospel of Christ, and the prophets preached the purpose of the OT Law of Moses, the foundation of both being salvation via faith in the ministry of Messiah/Christ, who is cited next

“with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone” – the key part of God’s plan of salvation is Christ’s atonement
“In him the whole building is joined together” – the analogies of one government and family are augmented by that of one edifice
“and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.” - the edifice increases as new souls convert to faith in Christ/Messiah and is deemed holy because each member is indwelt by the Holy Spirit per v.18
“And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.” - As in v.19, you refers to the Gentiles, who once were dependent on general revelation for salvation but now are joined with the Jews and the OT by the Holy Spirit as in v.18, which indicates the NT.

PaulThomson · 2025-05-13T23:50:23-0400

GWH said:
Imputation is not synonymous with pretense but rather it is actually becoming one with Christ and his righteousness.
God's standard is perfection, but because such is not actually achieved during earthly sanctification,
we would never actually qualify for heaven unless we were deemed to actually share the righteousness of Christ.
I trust that after translating Romans 2 & 3 you actually see/agree with this meaning, which is the crux of the Gospel.

PaulThomson said:
Would you agree that the absence of sin is perfect righteousness God is requiring, and since the blood of Jesus washes away all sin, that in itself makes us perfectly righteous. Would you agree that there is no need to be exactly like Jesus to be perfectly righteous. A child can be perfectly righteous without having all the same attributes of an adult.

I agree that "Imputation is not synonymous with pretence". But what exactly do you envision the righteousness of God/Christ to be that is credited to us?
1. The same kind of righteousness as God/Christ has?
2. The kind of righteousness Christ requires?
3. All the righteous deeds done by God/Christ throughout eternity?
4. Something else?

GWH said:

Are you suggesting that faith in the blood/death of Jesus is not enough to cleanse us of our guilt for sins, but we need to receive the Holy Spirit before our sins are forgiven? If all our sins are forgiven, by faith in the death of Jesus for sins, what is left to separate us from the love of God?

You said earlier that imputation is not pretence. But you went on to say -
"God's standard is perfection, but because such is not actually achieved during earthly sanctification,
we would never actually qualify for heaven unless we were deemed to actually share the righteousness of Christ.
When I cannot achieve X but someone deems me to be X anyway, that sounds like pretence to me.

When you say "God's standard is perfection" do you mean that God's standard is perfection in every thought, word and deed?

BTW, was your answer 1, 2, 3 or 4 ?

GWH · 2025-05-14T05:38:21-0400

PaulThomson said:

I believe the absence of sin is due to the presence and filling of the HS.

Being deemed or credited as sharing the righteousness of Christ can be described as the blood of Jesus washing away all sin.

We obtain Christ's perfect righteousness by grace through faith, after which our goal is to become morally perfect or completely loving like Jesus.

Re "what exactly do you envision the righteousness of God/Christ to be that is credited to us?
1. The same kind of righteousness as God/Christ has?
2. The kind of righteousness Christ requires?
3. All the righteous deeds done by God/Christ throughout eternity?
4. Something else?":
5. All of the above.

Over...

PaulThomson · 2025-05-14T05:47:24-0400

GWH said:

How do you interpret the parables of the talents if every Chrostian is credited with 3. All the righteous deeds done by God/Christ throughout eternity?

How do you exp[lain God disciplining His wayward children if every Chistian is credited with 1. The same kind of righteousness as God/Christ has?

GWH · 2025-05-14T06:32:37-0400

PaulThomson said:

I think I answered these questions by saying that although we obtain Christ's perfect righteousness by grace through faith (imputation or being credited), our goal during earthy sanctification is to become morally perfect or completely/fully loving like Jesus actually or in practice. (Phil. 3:12-16, Eph. 3:17-19)

PaulThomson · 2025-05-14T07:02:14-0400

GWH said:
I believe the absence of sin is due to the presence and filling of the HS.

Being deemed or credited as sharing the righteousness of Christ can be described as the blood of Jesus washing away all sin.

We obtain Christ's perfect righteousness by grace through faith, after which our goal is to become morally perfect or completely loving like Jesus.

Re "what exactly do you envision the righteousness of God/Christ to be that is credited to us?
1. The same kind of righteousness as God/Christ has?
2. The kind of righteousness Christ requires?
3. All the righteous deeds done by God/Christ throughout eternity?
4. Something else?":
5. All of the above.

Over...

GWH said:

So, you seem to be saying that we are credited/imputed with things we do not actually have: moral perfection, being completely/fully loving like Jesus actually or in practice. That sounds exactly like God is only pretending we have those things: (1) , (2), (3) and (4).

If say I have credited you/imputed to you one million dollars, and you believe I have, but when you try to draw out one thousand of those funds you can't withdraw them, I haven't really credited you with that money. I'm pretending I gave it to you. I'm pretending you have one million dollars of my funds. It's just creative book-keeping.

Your perspective still seems self-contradictory to me. If God has actually truly given us all the righteous thoughts, words and deeds of Jesus, we will all deserve exactly the same rewards.
If God has actually truly given us the same kind of righteousness as God and Jesus have, there can be no imperfection for God to discipline us over.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree and move on.

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