It seems to me that: Matthew 24:5 = first seal. 24:6 = second seal. 24:6-7= third seal. 24:7 = forth seal. 24:9 = fifth seal. 24:29-31 = sixth seal. How do pretrib believers get around Matthew 24:29-31 (the sixth seal). It's like the elephant in the room.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
When is the change from corruption to immortality? = The last trump. When the dead are raised, In the twinkling of an eye. It all happens at the same time.
what do we inherit? The heavenly kingdom, (that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God).
There is no earthly kingdom mentioned here and no distinction between a group that get raptured secretly before the rest of the saved.
The problem is that, if that event of the sun, moon and stars was synonymous with the 6th seal mentioned in Revelation 6, then we know that following that is the 7th seal, followed by the seven trumpets, which is followed by the seven bowl judgments.
Truthfully, I don't understand your question.
"Enoch was,then he was not...for he walked with God"I know a lot of people believe that there will be a pre tribulation rapture of the church. For the moment, let's set aside when this event will happen, pre trib., mid trib. or post trib. or even if there is a rapture at all. For this thread please limit it to whether this event is secret or not where people left behind when the church would be taken up don't know what happened.
Can people who believe it is a secret event where no one left behind will know what happened as portrayed in several popular movies and also that has been taught from the pulpit by some pastors please give us some Bible passages that show specifically it is a secret event?
Again, this topic is about it being a secret event where people just, 'poof' disappear and it is not about the timing of such an event. I have been hunting for information that supports the secret rapture but I have yet to find anything on it.
Hello Beloved777,
It is simple, Mt.24:29-31, though its description seems similar to the 6th seal, it cannot be the same event and here is why:
As Jesus describes the signs leading up to his return, in Mt.24:15 he mentions the abomination that causes the desolation, which according to Dan.9:27 takes place in the middle of the seven and therefore, in the chronological order of the signs, Mt.24:15 would be the middle. The event of the sun being darkened and the moon not giving its light would then take place some time after the abomination is set up and at the end of the seven years, with Christ returning immediately after that event in Mt.24:30-31. The problem is that, if that event of the sun, moon and stars was synonymous with the 6th seal mentioned in Revelation 6, then we know that following that is the 7th seal, followed by the seven trumpets, which is followed by the seven bowl judgments. That being said, do you see any of those other events taking place after the event of the sun, moon and stars? No, we don't! Therefore, that event in Mt.24:29 cannot be the same event as the 6th seal, but a similar event that will take place at the end of the seven years just prior to Christ's return to end the age. In fact, there are multiple other events mentioned in revelation that involve the sun, moon and stars.
The event of Mt.24:29 is the sign of the sun, moon and stars which takes place immediately before Christ's return to the earth to end the age. And Mt.24:30-31 is the event of Christ's return to the earth and therefore, there is no room for the 7th seal, the seven trumpets and the seven bowl judgments to take place. Furthermore, after the 6th bowl has been poured out, Jesus interjects the following:
"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed"
The above would demonstrate beyond doubt, that Jesus has not returned by the time the 6th bowl judgment has been poured out. It is not until after the 7th bowl, as demonstrated in Rev.19:11-21 that Jesus returns. After Mt.24:29, we do not see any of the plagues that would follow the 6th seal in Mt.24:29. That said, if Mt.24:29 was synonymous with the 6th seal, then we should see references to the 7th seal, the seven trumpets and the bowl judgments, but there are none. In fact, Christ's immediate return to end the age takes place immediately after Mt.24:29.
The problem with that view is that it relies completely on the order of the events that were seen and written down by John, and not according to the order of the type of events described. Even the event of the 1st Seal is not written in the order it will actually occur.
The last event Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse was that of His coming and gathering of His Church. It's the same in Rev.6, the last event is about His appearance and the nations in fear.
So it's like someone telling you the recipe for the end leading up to the last day without including the exact order, because the casting out of Satan and his angels as untimely figs happens prior to the sun being darkened, which is in reference to this on the day of Jesus' return:
Completely different views on these final events, When i trace the origins of dispensationalism, i know why i don't believe it.
The Bible is plain but we can make it say anything if we want to.
Truthfully, I don't understand your question.
I know a lot of people believe that there will be a pre tribulation rapture of the church. For the moment, let's set aside when this event will happen, pre trib., mid trib. or post trib. or even if there is a rapture at all. For this thread please limit it to whether this event is secret or not where people left behind when the church would be taken up don't know what happened.
Can people who believe it is a secret event where no one left behind will know what happened as portrayed in several popular movies and also that has been taught from the pulpit by some pastors please give us some Bible passages that show specifically it is a secret event?
Again, this topic is about it being a secret event where people just, 'poof' disappear and it is not about the timing of such an event. I have been hunting for information that supports the secret rapture but I have yet to find anything on it.
We are not told that the seals have any association to the GT or Wrath until the 6th seal.
Well DP, the burden of proof is on you and those who hold to your interpretation. What is more plausible, that the events in Revelation take place just as they are written or that the reader has to take them out of their chronological order? There is a reason that they are listed as plagues one through seven and that's because that is the order in which they take place. There is nothing in the context that would lead the reader to change the order that God put them in. What you are proclaiming is a false teaching that you got from others, as I have seen this same teaching many other times.
It is ridiculous to think that the first seal is not first! If you envision a scroll with seven seals, then you would have to break that first seal before you can get to the second seal and so-on. In other words, you can't just skip to say, the third seal and that because the first seal has to be opened first, followed by the second and third, etc. When you take the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments out of order, then you just make a mess out of the order of events described in Revelation. Furthermore, there is absolutely no reason to take them out of order. The only reason that expositors do this is so that it fits their interpretation.