Secret Rapture

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The anti-rapture guys are really slipping. These threads aren't fun anymore. We need to get back to fundamentals, starting with repeating these prescient arguments 500 more times, each:

1. The pre-tribulation rapture was unknown and never mentioned, until Darby. (Just a thought, guys, that you could juice that statement, against people who cite inconvenient ancient and Middle Age Christian writings, that Darby should be a lesson to all, not to believe your lying eyes when reading scripture.)

2. The word rapture isn't even in the Bible. (If they mention harpazo, just dismiss this and ask for scripture proof any Marx brother is in the Bible.)

3. That Christians have suffered before, and will most gloriously suffer, when the Lord Jesus goes totally postal, in His wrath against Christians, and whips on His spotless bride, that He loved and died to save. (Comfort one another with these words.)

If I'm mistaken, if these things have simply been debunked, never mind.
 
The pre-tribulation rapture was unknown and never mentioned, until Darby

And what about those who have never read anything by Darby, like me, who have understood from Scripture that the resurrection and catching away must take place prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath?

2. The word rapture isn't even in the Bible. (If they mention harpazo, just dismiss this and ask for scripture proof any Marx brother is in the Bible.)

It figures you would want to dismiss the word "Harpazo" and that because it means a snatching away, force suddenly exercised and that to meet the Lord in the air. The scripture is very clear regarding this.
 
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And what about those who have never read anything by Darby, like me, who have understood from Scripture that the resurrection and catching away must take place prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath?

What an excellent point! Same here. I don't have squat of anything Darby wrote, either, to this day, and came to find the pre-tribulation rapture in serious scripture study, after first hearing it preached, and pretty much little more than a mention in a sermon about being ready for the Lord, as a very young man.
 
What an excellent point! Same here. I don't have squat of anything Darby wrote, either, to this day, and came to find the pre-tribulation rapture in serious scripture study, after first hearing it preached, and pretty much little more than a mention in a sermon about being ready for the Lord, as a very young man.

It means that Satan is busy distorting God's word in these last days!
 
It means that Satan is busy distorting God's word in these last days!

You shouldn't use the 'S' word very often, as it's not politically correct: they're morally and scripturally challenged. Sometimes, when you see the silly arguments and venom, these guys gnashing their teeth, on a daily mission against the blessed hope, I think of another 'S' word, Shakespeare, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."
 
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

Now brethren concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to him we ask you not to be shaken in mind or troubled either by spirit or word or by letter as if from us as though the day of the Lord had come. Let no one deceive you by any means for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first and the man of sin is revealed.


The above verses show that believers of Paul's time believed that the coming of Christ to gather saints to Himself will be a secret event. They were worried that Christ had come already even without their knowledge. Here Paul is not refusing the secret nature of the Lords coming but he only says that they need to watch for this one sign of the man of sin sitting in the temple of God. The Rapture would not happen before that.

There is no Bible Scripture showing that Christ's coming to gather His Church will be a secret event. Have you not read Rev.1 which states every eye will see Him coming in the clouds, even those who pierced Him?

Jesus said He comes "as a thief" (Rev.16:15), and that "as a thief in the night" metaphor was used by Paul and Peter when describing the time of destruction upon the wicked at the last day called the "day of the Lord" (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10). That solidly puts Christ's coming to gather His Church at the END of this world, and not prior to the tribulation.
 
If Paul was refusing the secret nature of the Lords coming he would have told them that Christ's coming will be an open event witnessed by the whole world and that no one can miss noticing it.

Paul taught exactly that though, by showing the events of the "day of the Lord" upon the wicked in 1 Thess.5, saying the "day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night." Jesus said He comes "as a thief" in Rev.16:15 which is in prep for the final 7th Vial.

In 2 Thess.2, Paul showed that the man of sin must be revealed first and a great falling away must occur prior to Christ's coming to gather His Church. If you see or hear about the false messiah in Jerusalem who comes first, then you are ALREADY in the start of Daniel's "one week" of Dan.9:27, and no rapture has happened.
 
Personally, I believe that the rapture and the second coming of Christ are the same event and that there is no chance for salvation at that point. Do you believe in a pre trib. rapture and that there is no chance for salvation during the tribulation? It sounds though from your post that you don't believe in a pre trib. rapture.

I agree with you that the "rapture" and Second Coming are the same event, but where do you get the idea that there is no chance for salvation after that? If one is still alive (hasn't faced physical death yet) he or she can still be saved. This is a well taught principle. Nothing suggests that the moment Christ returns it's "game over" for ALL LIVING SINNERS. It is only game over for those "worshiping the Beast."

2 Peter 3: [SUP]9 [/SUP]The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The Lord is longsuffering not willing that any should perish. This is why He sends the three proclaiming angels, which come AFTER the Lamb is seen standing on Mt. Zion. The first of these angels says this:

Rev 14:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— [SUP]7 [/SUP]saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

We see "the hour of judgment" has come, yet everyone still alive has the chance to "Fear God, give glory to Him and worship Him" and I'd argue, be saved. Just as the sinner on the cross was saved, so will those still alive who see Christ return in all His glory be given that chance.

Paul tells us:

Heb 14: For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For it is written:

As I live, says the Lord,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”


So, we see that those who are not slayed upon the Return of Christ (which is 1/3 of the earth, which are those who worship the Beast and her Harlot, Mystery Babylon, ISLAM), are converted and recognize and worship Christ. Every knee, every tongue, means EVERY.

Joel confirms this in 2:32: And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the Lord has said, Among the remnant whom the Lord calls.

As for the Judgment, the writer of Hebrews is clear:

Heb 9: [SUP]27 [/SUP]And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, [SUP]28 [/SUP]so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Matthew agrees in Mat 24: But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

We see this again in Acts 2:21:

And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’


Paul also gives witness to this in Romans 10: For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

This means, if you are still standing and not slayed, you can still convert and be saved.

After death comes judgment and each man is to die once. I know what you are saying, but what about at the "rapture" when the living are changed, they don't face death? Yes, that is correct. The SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN is seen BEFORE HE RETURNS. The condemned have time to run and hide in the rocks and caves. At this moment, either you accept Christ and are transformed, or you don't and are condemned.
 
Could not the 19th century rapture revelation be a fulfillment of Daniel 12:4 'seal up these words until the time of the end'?

Could Amos 3:7 apply here? 'For God doesn't make a move until He reveals it to His servant prophets first'.

Vines dictionary defines prophet as one who Has His Spirit and speaks forth His word.

That would be us when we utter a witness with the help of the Holy Spirit, would it not?

Ive always believed that as we draw toward the end that things would be revealed to us, those in tune that is, and not following the current apostasies.
 
So many of my brothers and sisters in Christ wrongly think that the "Great Tribulation" is God's Wrath poured out on the entire planet and because we are not appointed to wrath that we must be snatched off the planet before the Great Tribulation. They also think (even though it is not taught) that the "rapture" happens before the first seal is opened. This is also a false assumption. These confused believers don't even understand what and where the Great Tribulation occurs and who is the subject of it. I've tried repeatedly to inform but they still don't get it. Let me try again for those who might be new to this study.

The Great Tribulation is aimed at Israel and it is the Muslim world which persecutes and kills them in droves. The trigger for the GT is the Abomination of Desolation.

Mat 24: [SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Abomination of Desolation is seen
Those in Judea are to flee
Then there will be Great Tribulation


[SUP]20 [/SUP]And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

Where is the Sabbath observed?

We see specifically that it is "Those in Judea" who are to flee. It isn't the church or the whole planet.

Who is the target of the Great Tribulation? Jer 30 tells us:

So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.


We know from Ezek 38-39, from Zech 13, from Joel and many other places that at the end, BEFORE Christ returns, ISRAEL will be attacked and nearly destroyed (2/3 are killed). So the Great Tribulation happens to ISRAEL, she is the subject of it and those who attack her are mostly Muslim nations and Ezekiel identifies them. It is not GOD who attacks Israel (although He allows it). God shortens those days to save the remnant (1/3) of Israel.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

The ELECT of Israel are saved from the destruction of the GT. God's Wrath comes AFTER the Tribulation and is in direct response to it. The GT is actually Satan's Wrath which comes first as we are told in Rev 12:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

The Dragon, Satan, has 7 heads and 10 horns:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.

What else has 7 heads and 10 horns? Rev 13:

And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.

It is this BEAST which are ISLAMIC nations which will attack Israel and start the Great Tribulation. Ezek 38:1-9 tells us exactly this.

This is ISRAEL: you will come into the land of those brought back from the sword and gathered from many people on the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate; they were brought out of the nations, and now all of them dwell safely. Is this any doubt that this is describing ISRAEL TODAY??

Who attacks ISRAEL?

Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal
Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya
Gomer and
the house of Togarmah

These 8 countries (places, horns) are known, their people are Muslims. Their religion (Harlot) is ISLAM. Dan 7 teaches that there were originally 10 horns but a little horn comes up from among them and plucks out 3 horns leaving the 8 horns that Ezekiel identifies.

Thus the action (GT) is in and around ISRAEL. The Great Tribulation therefore is NOT GLOBAL. Therefore there is no need to rapture the Church off the planet for the Church to avoid the Great Tribulation. The Church is all but wiped out in these Muslim nations and pretty much will be by the time Israel is attacked.

The Wrath of God is in response to the GT and is aimed specifically at the BEAST KINGDOM as we are told in Rev 18:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.

God is repaying something and someone(s), right? Can we identify who or what the Bowls are targeting from Rev 16?

a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.
they have shed the blood of saints and prophets
the throne of the beast
on the great river Euphrates
they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

Where is the Euphrates? Where is Armageddon? Who sheds blood of saints and prophets? Who worships the BEAST and has the BEAST'S mark? Who are these people?

“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Who are these condemned, Beast worshiping people? By now it should be clear.
 
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Personally, I believe that the rapture and the second coming of Christ are the same event and that there is no chance for salvation at that point. Do you believe in a pre trib. rapture and that there is no chance for salvation during the tribulation? It sounds though from your post that you don't believe in a pre trib. rapture.

If the rapture and second coming are the same event, Jesus has no one to rule for a thousand years with a rod of iron.

So the rapture and second coming can not possibly be the same event..
 
Most people call the 70th week of Daniel "the Tribulation". This is a mislabeling.
The Tribulation is the 1st 3.5 years of the 70th week. Wrath is the 2nd 3.5 years.
So with that understood, I am post-trib, pre-wrath. This is also artificially labelled as "mid-trib" by many.
I also hold that the Marriage Supper of the Lamb occurs post-wrath, and as the inauguration of the Millenial Kingdom.

I am not fully opposed to post-wrath view, but only if the proponent supports that God will divinely protect the Church during the Wrath.

ok this makes no sense.

the wrath is the last 3.5 years. so if you are post trib, pre-wrath, that is impossible.


The time of tribulation (following the abomination in the middle of the week) is the wrath of God..
 
The rapture and second coming are definitely two separate events. We will be with the Lord when he descends and sets foot on the earth.

Some have everyone alive at the end of the tribulation raptured, Given resurrected bodies (without yet being judged) and returning with Christ to a kingdom, where no one is left on earth. WHo are we going to rule??
 
to many posts to read.

"Secret" rapture, Calling it a secret seems to be a silly way to try to discount what the bible says about it,, I hope you have a better argument that this, To me it just sounds like just trying to excuse your own belief.


The rapure is no more than the resurrection of the saints of Christ.. where we meet Christ in the clouds, nothing more nothing less.

The rapture, no one knows the time or the hour

The return, we will know the hour. 3.5 years post the abomination of desolation. He who endures to the end will be saved (and enter the kingdom with Christ alive, NOT RAPTURED.. Only those who where martyred because they did not recieve mark of beast will be raptured then,
 
The rapture and second coming are the same event because in Matthew 24 Christ says he returns after the tribulation and sends his holy angels to the four corners of the earth to gather his elect to himself. What is absolutely evident is that Christ returns after the tribulation as recorded in Matthew 24. I don't think that there will be a secret rapture because there is no secret return as stated in Revelation 1:7.
 
I don't have a stance on the rapture as to when it will happen be that pre mid or post trib but the rapture and the second coming I don't think are the same things as the rapture is us going to him in his second coming he comes to us.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 - Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

of course there are many more scriptures that speak of us coming to him and of him coming here however there are also some like this


1 Thessalonians 4:16 - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

which seems to say it's the same event
 
The rapture and second coming are the same event because in Matthew 24 Christ says he returns after the tribulation and sends his holy angels to the four corners of the earth to gather his elect to himself. What is absolutely evident is that Christ returns after the tribulation as recorded in Matthew 24. I don't think that there will be a secret rapture because there is no secret return as stated in Revelation 1:7.

Ok then

If all who are saved are raptured.

and all who are not saved are killed.

Who is left alive to go into the kingdom age?
 
Hello kentapped,

I believe that the rapture and the second coming of Christ are the same event and that there is no chance for salvation at that point

Forgive me for jumping in, but here are some of the major problems with making the events of the resurrection and catching away and Christ's return to the earth to end the age as being the same event:

The wrath of God:
This is an unprecedented time, which was prophesied of by the OT prophets and also by the NT writers. Expositors will claim that the apostles and 1st century church were persecuted and put to death, so why should the church in these last days escape persecution and death? The answer is that, these expositors are using a false comparison in that, what the 1st century church suffered was persecution and death at the hands of men, with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background. In opposition, what is coming is God's direct wrath which will be poured out upon the entire earth during that last seven years as described in Dan.9:24, 27 and said wrath which is also initiated by the Lamb, Jesus Christ (Rev.6:1).

This coming wrath, also known as "the day of the Lord" and "the hour of trial" is what the book of Revelation reveals will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. These are meant to decimate the population of the earth and to dismantle all human government in preparation for Christ's millennial kingdom (Dan.2:31-14, Rev.6-18). If anyone has any doubts about that, in regards to the decimation of the population, there are only two places within God's wrath in the book of Revelation that mention the percentage of fatalities, which is at the 4th seal of which a fourth of the earth's immediate population is killed and at the 6th trumpet where a third of the earth's population is killed. With just these two and based on the current population of 7 billion, the fatalities would equal 4.4 billion people killed, and that is not including trumpets 1, 2 and 3 nor any of the bowl judgments. By my questimation, by the time the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, there will be less than 10% of the earth's population and that is being conservative.

Also, regarding this time of unprecedented wrath, specifically the last 3 1/2 years, Jesus said that it would be a time of great distress such as the world has not seen from the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again. And if those days of wrath had not been shortened, no one would be left alive on the earth. Regarding this wrath, scripture states that Jesus rescues believers from the coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10) and also that we are not appointed to suffer that coming wrath (1 Thes.5:9). His promise of rescuing us is found in John 14:1-3 and the event of the rescue can be found in 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-53. Regarding our being gathered to the Lord, after Paul outlines the resurrection and catching away, he then follows with, "therefore comfort one another with these words." Also, the Lord's appearing and our being gathered is referred to as "the blessed hope." That being said, there would be no comfort, neither would it be a blessed hope if the churches resurrection and catching away was to take place at the same time that Christ returns to the earth to end the age and that because it would take the living church through the entire wrath of God.

Many expositors will cite Rev.20:6 as the their proof that the church is being resurrected here and that because of the words "first resurrection." The first thing to understand is that, the first resurrection does not imply "Only resurrection." There are stages or phases to the first resurrection beginning with Christ as the first fruits, the church at his coming, the male child/144,000 who are caught up to God's throne, the two witnesses and finally the GTS, who are resurrected after Christ returns to the earth. Here are some of the characteristics of the resurrection here in Rev.20:6

Only a resurrection:
Here in Rev.20:6 there is only a resurrection mentioned with no mention of living believers being changed, which is in opposition to 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-53 which teaches that the dead are raised and the living are changed and will be caught up together with those who will have just resurrected to meet the Lord in the air.

Only the Great Tribulation Saints:
Again here at Rev.20:6, it is demonstrated that this resurrection only involves the great tribulation saints, which can be deduced from the following scripture:

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Regarding the above, notice that those who are resurrected are those who will have not worshiped the beast, his image nor will have received his mark, which demonstrates that these are only the great tribulation saints who will be present during that time period.

The Church is not present:
Another important fact to take into consideration is that, from Revelation 1 through the very end of chapter 3, the word "Ekklesia" translated "Church(s)" is listed 19 times. In opposition, the word "Hagios" translated "Saint(s) is never used within those chapters. Likewise, from Revelation 4 onward, you will never see the word "Ekklesia/Church" within those chapters, but only the word "Hagios/Saints" to describe a believer. The importance of this is that, the church is never mentioned again after the end of chapter 3 and during the narrative of God's wrath. The next time the word "Church" is used is in Rev.22:16 which is outside of the narrative. By this, God is making a distinction between the Church and the great tribulation saints, which are those who will be present during that last seven year time period and of whom the antichrist will be given power to make war against and to conquer (Dan.7:25, Rev.13:7). These great tribulation saints is that group who are introduced by the elder in Rev.7:9-17

The Armies of Heaven Riding on White Horses:
If the church was in view as those being resurrected in Rev.20:6, which takes place after Christ returns to the earth to end the age, then who is following him out of heaven riding on white horses wearing fine linen, bright and clean? Keep in mind, if everyone is resurrected after Christ returns to the earth to end the age, including the church, then no one would have been resurrected prior to that resurrection except for Christ as the first fruits. So again, who is following him out of heaven? Some would say that these are angels, but there is a big problem with that, for the following scripture identifies who will be coming with Christ when he returns to the earth:

"They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."

Called, chosen and faithful followers would not be a proper designation for angels, but for redeemed mankind, the church.

White Clothes, Fine and Clean:
Those following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses are said to be wearing fine linen, bright and clean. This is another proof that it is the Church/Bride who will be following the Lord out of heaven, as can be seen from the following:

"Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:
“Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”

The above demonstrates that 1). The Bride which is another designation for the Church is already in heaven during the wedding of the Lamb, the Church being his Bride and that 2). she, the Bride/Church, is receiving her fine linen, bright and clean, which is exactly what those armies in Rev.19:14 are wearing, ergo, those on white horses following Christ out of heaven and wearing fine linen, bright and clean is the Church, which will have been resurrected, changed and caught up prior to God's wrath being poured out.