Secret Rapture

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Completely different views on these final events, When i trace the origins of dispensationalism, i know why i don't believe it.
The Bible is plain but we can make it say anything if we want to.

You are half right, yes we can make it say what we want it to say but the bible is in no way plain, most of us read it but don't truly read it, we believe we have understanding of what the bibles truths are when in fact we haven't even begun to grasp the truth of it many of us haven't even gone through the third layer of the thousands of layers of the truth the beauty the the heart of God that is the bible.
 
Regarding the above, the same problem exists and that is that the scripture states that Christ rescues us from the coming wrath and that we not appointed to suffer wrath, which is what the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are, i.e. God's wrath. That said, the church will be removed prior to the first seal being opened. As further proof of this, I continue to demonstrate from scripture that you will not find the word "Ekklesia" translated as "Church" anywhere in the narrative during God's wrath and that because the Church is already gone.

That is where pre-trib is making a huge error of what 'wrath' Paul was speaking of in the 1 Thess.5 chapter. It is not the wrath of plagues upon the beast that occurs on the 1-6 Vials. It's the wrath that will occur on the final 7th Vial. And it is called a "plague" also in God's Word, per the Zech.14 description which also shows it comes on the "day of the Lord", the LAST day.

In 1 Thess.5, the wrath Paul is talking about is the "sudden destruction" on the "day of the Lord" that will come upon those who will be saying, "Peace and safety". I've pointed this out many times on this forum, and showed per God's Word when that "day of the Lord" will occur, i.e., on the very LAST day of this world.

1 Thess 5:2-4
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
KJV
 
No doubt DP IS oblivious that his Isaiah verse has the day of the lord and year of vengeance as the same event.

Kinds messes up the idea they argue that it is not a period of years.

Thanks DP for that pretrib rapture plug.

Post trib rapture deal makes less sense everyday.

Wait,no,it never did
 
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The above is complete conjecture on your part, as there is nothing that links the war in heaven with the sun being darkened and the moon not giving its light. You are reading into the scripture what is not there. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place in the exact order that they are found in the book of Revelation.

Well, I've already shown you the order with the "day of the Lord" events per God's Word, which is an event to occur on the final day of this world, and NOT for a 3.5 year period like you and other pre-trib rapture folks have been saying on this forum.

Isa 13:9-13
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of His fierce anger.
KJV

Joel 2:10-11
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the LORD shall utter His voice before His army: for His camp is very great: for He is strong That executeth His word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
KJV

Joel 3:14-16
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of His people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
KJV

Matt 24:29-30
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
KJV

 
"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll."

If the seals, trumpets and bowls where in a different order than they appear, then God would have put them in that order. They will happen in exactly the order that they are written in.

That's a white-washed wall speaking there brethren.

The Scripture modifications the pre-trib rapture theory does is one of the most blatant examples of the traditions of men adding and taking away from God's Holy Writ.

The many Biblical examples of the event of the "day of the Lord" I have posted directly from God's Word reveals how in error pre-trib is with their rapture theories, wrongly teaching that event is the tribulation and not the last day of this present world when God will rise up and punish the wicked on earth and burn man's works off this earth!
 
The bible says when jesus returns, All who have rejected him and followed the beast are killed

That means everyone left alive are born again children of god.

If they are all raptured (which post trib would have to be saying) WHo is left for the king to be king over. there is no one left alive on earth. They were either killed or raptured.

Theory duped:

Post-Millennium Timing:

Zech 14:16-17
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
KJV

Rev 20:7-9
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
KJV
 
(Correction -the Zech.14:16-17 timing is Millennial timing)

Theory duped:

post-trib Millennial timing:


Zech 14:16-17
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
KJV

Post-Millennium Timing:

Rev 20:7-9
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
KJV[/QUOTE]
 
Theory duped:

Post-Millennium Timing:

Zech 14:16-17
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
KJV

Rev 20:7-9
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
KJV

That is the millennium.

If post trib is real. That will never happen. will not be anyone left.
 
That is the millennium.

If post trib is real. That will never happen. will not be anyone left.

I made a correction to that post. The Zech.14 example is Millennial timing (Christ's "thousand years" reign of Rev.20)

But the Rev.20:7-9 Scripture is post-Millennial timing, when Satan is released one final time to go deceive the nations into coming upon the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" ON EARTH.

What does that Rev.20:7-9 Scripture then show us of 'where' Christ's Church will reign with Jesus from? It's upon the earth, as written there, and here:

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;


10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV

Who do we reign over with Jesus in that time on earth, and with what?

Rev 2:26-29
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of My Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
KJV
 
The 6th Trumpet is described in detail by Joel.

6th Trumpet (Rev 9):

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, [SUP]14 [/SUP]saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. [SUP]18 [/SUP]By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.


Compare to Joel 2:

Blow the trumpet in Zion,
And sound an alarm in My holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble;
For the day of the Lord is coming,
For it is at hand:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]A day of darkness and gloominess,
A day of clouds and thick darkness,
Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains.
A people come, great and strong,
The like of whom has never been;
Nor will there ever be any such after them,
Even for many successive generations.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]A fire devours before them,
And behind them a flame burns;
The land is like the Garden of Eden before them,
And behind them a desolate wilderness;
Surely nothing shall escape them.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Their appearance is like the appearance of horses;
And like swift steeds, so they run.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]With a noise like chariots
Over mountaintops they leap,
Like the noise of a flaming fire that devours the stubble,
Like a strong people set in battle array.


[SUP]6 [/SUP]Before them the people writhe in pain;
All faces are drained of color.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]They run like mighty men,
They climb the wall like men of war;
Every one marches in formation,
And they do not break ranks.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]They do not push one another;
Every one marches in his own column.
Though they lunge between the weapons,
They are not cut down.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]They run to and fro in the city,
They run on the wall;
They climb into the houses,
They enter at the windows like a thief.


[SUP]10 [/SUP]The earth quakes before them,
The heavens tremble;
The sun and moon grow dark,
And the stars diminish their brightness.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]The Lord gives voice before His army,
For His camp is very great;
For strong is the One who executes His word.
For the day of the Lord is great and very terrible;
Who can endure it?




Putting it all together we now know that the Army of the Lord is 200 million strong. We know that they kill 1/3 of the earth. We see that the 6th seal and 6th trumpet are linked to Mat 24:29-31 and Rev 19.
 
The above is incorrect and that because Jesus, the Lamb, is the One who opening the seals. The announcement made that the wrath of God has come includes the previous seals that were opened and not just everything that takes place after that. The result of the fourth seal, based on the current population of 7 billion, would be 1.7 billion fatalities. So yes, the seals one through four are included as belonging to God's wrath. It is just at the 6th seal that the announcement is made.

My friend, thou assumes too much. We are not told that 1/4 of the world is killed at the fourth seal. Read it again.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

It says the Green horse (not pale) has power over 1/4 of the earth. It doesn't say he kills 1/4 of the earth. He has power to kill within his 1/4 of the earth by various means. The United States and Russia have power to kill the entire planet many times over but this doesn't mean either county will do it.

Your argument that the 4 seals are part of God's wrath because Christ opens them is also a false assumption. Christ is revealing. That's why its called the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Christ also opens the 5th seal. Do you think Christ killed those people as well?
 
The 6th Trumpet is described in detail by Joel.

6th Trumpet (Rev 9):

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, [SUP]14 [/SUP]saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. [SUP]18 [/SUP]By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.


Compare to Joel 2:

Blow the trumpet in Zion,
And sound an alarm in My holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble;
For the day of the Lord is coming,
For it is at hand:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]A day of darkness and gloominess,
A day of clouds and thick darkness,
Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains.
A people come, great and strong,
The like of whom has never been;
Nor will there ever be any such after them,
Even for many successive generations.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]A fire devours before them,
And behind them a flame burns;
The land is like the Garden of Eden before them,
And behind them a desolate wilderness;
Surely nothing shall escape them.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Their appearance is like the appearance of horses;
And like swift steeds, so they run.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]With a noise like chariots
Over mountaintops they leap,
Like the noise of a flaming fire that devours the stubble,
Like a strong people set in battle array.


[SUP]6 [/SUP]Before them the people writhe in pain;
All faces are drained of color.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]They run like mighty men,
They climb the wall like men of war;
Every one marches in formation,
And they do not break ranks.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]They do not push one another;
Every one marches in his own column.
Though they lunge between the weapons,
They are not cut down.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]They run to and fro in the city,
They run on the wall;
They climb into the houses,
They enter at the windows like a thief.


[SUP]10 [/SUP]The earth quakes before them,
The heavens tremble;
The sun and moon grow dark,
And the stars diminish their brightness.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]The Lord gives voice before His army,
For His camp is very great;
For strong is the One who executes His word.
For the day of the Lord is great and very terrible;
Who can endure it?




Putting it all together we now know that the Army of the Lord is 200 million strong. We know that they kill 1/3 of the earth. We see that the 6th seal and 6th trumpet are linked to Mat 24:29-31 and Rev 19.

Got some things mixed up a little bit there.

The "day of the Lord" event is actually the final day that ends this present world, when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth per 2 Pet.3:10 and punish the wicked. It's the "last trump" timing of Paul in 1 Cor.15, and the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11 when all the kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and The Son with Jesus beginning His eternal reign over all nations. This is why that Joel 2:1 verses states, "For the day of the LORD is coming" and is "at hand", meaning it's not yet time then for the pouring out of the final 7th Vial of God's cup of wrath.

Those locusts of the Book of Joel are the locust army of Rev.9 that occurs within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing, which is still... great tribulation timing. That means that 200 million army is NOT Christ's army that follows Him on the final day in Rev.19. This is why beginning at Joel 2:10 or 11 is about the "day of the LORD", 7th Trumpet, 7th Vial timing, but the previous verses are still 6th Trumpet timing.
 
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[h=1]ISIS Declares New Islamist Caliphate[/h] [h=2]Militant Group Declares Statehood, Demands Allegiance From Other Organizations[/h] By Matt Bradley

June 29, 2014 2:07 p.m. ET BAGHDAD—The Sunni Islamist militant group whose three-week blitz through northern Iraq has nearly upended the country's fragile unity announced itself as a new Islamist "caliphate" on Sunday, unilaterally declaring statehood and demanding allegiance from other Islamist groups. This announcement came on the first day of Ramadan.

...telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. [SUP]15 [/SUP]He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

The Beast who was wounded by the sword and lived is none other than the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire began in 1299 and ended in 1922 thus lasting 623 Gregorian years. If we convert those to Hebrew years we get 632. Islam began in 632 AD by the false prophet Muhammad. Converting to Hebrew years ISIS began 1400 years after Islam was founded.

I believe ISIS is the continuation of the Beast that was mortally wounded (Ottoman) yet now lives again. If I am correct, ISIS will take over 1/4 of the Muslim world as Muslims will be astonished that nobody can defeat ISIS.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”

ISIS is killing within it's 1/4 of the Muslim world (1/4 of "earth") right now and it is doing so by various means.

And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

EARTH represents society, in this case Muslim society, not literal dirt or the planet. Isa 1:2

Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth!


Dirt doesn't hear, people do.

 
Got some things mixed up a little bit there.

The "day of the Lord" event is actually the final day that ends this present world, when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth per 2 Pet.3:10 and punish the wicked. It's the "last trump" timing of Paul in 1 Cor.15, and the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11 when all the kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and The Son with Jesus beginning His eternal reign over all nations. This is why that Joel 2:1 verses states, "For the day of the LORD is coming" and is "at hand", meaning it's not yet time then for the pouring out of the final 7th Vial of God's cup of wrath.

Those locusts of the Book of Joel are the locust army of Rev.9 that occurs within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing, which is still... great tribulation timing. That means that 200 million army is NOT Christ's army that follows Him on the final day in Rev.19. This is why beginning at Joel 2:10 or 11 is about the "day of the LORD", 7th Trumpet, 7th Vial timing, but the previous verses are still 6th Trumpet timing.
It says the "Day of the Lord is Coming" it doesn't say it's here. This precedes the Day of the Lord and indeed is the Wrath, not the Tribulation. The Tribulation is over by the timing of this event. Further, the Day of the Lord lasts 1,000 years as Peter tells us. This is the beginning of the 1,000 years.

Compare Joel 2:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]The earth quakes before them, The heavens tremble; The sun and moon grow dark, And the stars diminish their brightness. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The Lord gives voice before His army...

To Mat 24:

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

These are the same events. Christ hasn't returned yet but the Tribulation (against Israel) is over. Now compare to 6th Seal:

..when He opened the sixth seal, and behold,[SUP][e][/SUP] there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

This is all the same event, the same sign. Christ still hasn't returned but everyone knows by this time that His return is imminent. Why do the Muslims who have been attacking Israel fear?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Because they see the SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN and then they see Him coming.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

These "Clouds of Heaven" are HIS army. Joel uses the same exact description for this army.

Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been;
Nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations.


We see fear at the 6th seal and Joel describes the same fear.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Before them the people writhe in pain; All faces are drained of color.

THE LORD WILL AVENGE those who have been killing His Children during the Tribulation of Jacob. Those He kills are those who have been following the Beast - ISLAM
 
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Got some things mixed up a little bit there.

You guys? A little bit mixed up? rolling-on-the-floor-laughing-smiley-emoticon.gif


2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Another little rift in the post-trib camp? Surprise, surprise. DP, here I was thinking you and PlainWord ought to get a cabin in the woods and swap fish stories, discuss your career paths, trashing the blessed hope. Still, don't think that's a bad idea.

smoke-and-mirrors.jpg


Wouldn't be a complete post without your favorite article, PlainWord's, too. Print it out, take it to that cabin, and don't you guys forget your Bibles. Now, I know you're thinking, "What's the use of that?" But there are just too many harmonious Bible verses in the article, teaching the truth of the pre-tribulation rapture, and, though holding out little hope the scripture will register: if nothing else, it will help you guys practice navigating the Bible better, when you're finding unrelated verses and preparing your spaghetti exegesis.

 
It says the "Day of the Lord is Coming" it doesn't say it's here. This precedes the Day of the Lord and indeed is the Wrath, not the Tribulation. The Tribulation is over by the timing of this event. Further, the Day of the Lord lasts 1,000 years as Peter tells us. This is the beginning of the 1,000 years.

Compare Joel 2:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]The earth quakes before them, The heavens tremble; The sun and moon grow dark, And the stars diminish their brightness. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The Lord gives voice before His army...

To Mat 24:

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

These are the same events. Christ hasn't returned yet but the Tribulation (against Israel) is over. Now compare to 6th Seal:

..when He opened the sixth seal, and behold,[SUP][e][/SUP] there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

This is all the same event, the same sign. Christ still hasn't returned but everyone knows by this time that His return is imminent. Why do the Muslims who have been attacking Israel fear?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Because they see the SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN and then they see Him coming.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

These "Clouds of Heaven" are HIS army. Joel uses the same exact description for this army.

Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been;
Nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations.


We see fear at the 6th seal and Joel describes the same fear.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Before them the people writhe in pain; All faces are drained of color.

THE LORD WILL AVENGE those who have been killing His Children during the Tribulation of Jacob. Those He kills are those who have been following the Beast - ISLAM

The verses prior to v.10-11 are tribulation timing, which those previous verses are about the locust army that God sends upon His people during that time. Joel 2:10 forward is the beginning of His declaration to end that.

Have to discern between that locust army ("My great army" that He calls that locust army).

Joel 2:25
25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, My great army which I sent among you.
KJV

God is in control, He is Who sends those locusts upon the earth for the tribulation time, and that's what He is calling His great army there, which that locust army is not about the time of Christ's coming with His army later.
 
It won't be a secrete to God's elect. When he comes back and gets his people ITS over. No more chances, finished and done.
Today is the day of salvation...............2 Cor. 6:2
How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation...........Hebrews 2:3
Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.................Phil 2:12
 
It won't be a secrete to God's elect. When he comes back and gets his people ITS over. No more chances, finished and done.
Today is the day of salvation...............2 Cor. 6:2
How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation...........Hebrews 2:3
Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.................Phil 2:12

Hi Josefnospam,

I agree with you, but there will also be people saved during the last seven years who are called the great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17. This group are those who John sees being resurrected in Rev.20:6, who will also rule with Christ during that 1000 years. You also have the woman/Israel who will be cared for by God out in that place prepared for her (Mt.24:15-22, Rev.12:6,14). The only difference between the Church and this group is that those who are ready and watching belonging to the church will be removed prior to God's wrath and those great tribulation saints will have been caught in that time of wrath and the during the reign of the beast and many will be killed because of their testimony of Christ and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor had received his mark.
 
I know a lot of people believe that there will be a pre tribulation rapture of the church. For the moment, let's set aside when this event will happen, pre trib., mid trib. or post trib. or even if there is a rapture at all. For this thread please limit it to whether this event is secret or not where people left behind when the church would be taken up don't know what happened.

Can people who believe it is a secret event where no one left behind will know what happened as portrayed in several popular movies and also that has been taught from the pulpit by some pastors please give us some Bible passages that show specifically it is a secret event?


Again, this topic is about it being a secret event where people just, 'poof' disappear and it is not about the timing of such an event. I have been hunting for information that supports the secret rapture but I have yet to find anything on it.

MBFM! It is a fable first proposed by Francisco Ribera in the 1500's and then popularized by John Nelson Darby 1830. It is as phony as a $3 bill.
 
MBFM! It is a fable first proposed by Francisco Ribera in the 1500's and then popularized by John Nelson Darby 1830. It is as phony as a $3 bill.
Mine us the bible.

You postrib rapture guys,without fail,stand on dead men as your foundation.

I understand the need for that arena.
You have no postrib rapture verses. None