Saved by faith alone?

[Ted01]

Ted01,
would you be like "those of the circumcision and forbid water"?

Would you refuse them the baptism of the remission of sins that Peter commanded?

Would you not insist that they be water baptized? Peter most certainly did.

There is no mention of their sins being forgiven, they were not an exception they had to be baptized for the remission of sins like everyone else.

Nobody here is talking about refusing baptism... except you. That was not necessary.

Could you please give the Scripture that says baptism is for the "remission of sins"? (as opposed to remission for sins").

 

[John146]

So, you still engage in the works of the flesh and think you're saved?

You still think you are without sin?

 

[John146]

So, you still engage in the works of the flesh and think you're saved?

I've never met anyone who thinks they never sin.

 

[07-07-07]

I've never met anyone who thinks they never sin.

Not my opinion nor your opinion, but the Word of God is the authority.

1 John 3
[4] Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
[5] And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.
[6] Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
[7] Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
[8] He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
[9] Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. (NKJV)

 

[Beckie]

As I have mentioned many times, both water baptism in the name of Jesus, and receiving the Holy Ghost/Spirit are NT rebirth requirements. However, being water baptized does not automatically result in a person being indwelt with the Holy Ghost. As you point out, the account confirms this. The record also confirms believing in Jesus doesn't automatically cause a person to be indwelt by the Holy Ghost either. They are distinct experiences. Note Paul's question, "Have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed?" Why not just ask if they believed, if in fact everyone receives the Holy Ghost the moment they believe in Jesus? Also, why did Jesus tell people to pray to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost if believing brought about the reality? (Luke 11:13) And further evidence is found in regards to the Samaritan's. They believed in Jesus, and submitted to water baptism in the name of Jesus, yet they did not receive the Holy Ghost until days later. (Acts 8:12-18)

A Pentecostal pastor about 1958 from Sacramento CA could be heard often speaking in tongues but what many did not know he was having an affair with the married piano player . Third generation of pentecostals here . I know plenty of Christians who do not speak in tongues . Also many who speak in tongues who do not bare Godly fruit.

 

[Lamar]

Nobody here is talking about refusing baptism... except you. That was not necessary.

Could you please give the Scripture that says baptism is for the "remission of sins"? (as opposed to remission for sins").

Are you serious? Of vs. for? How does this matter?

But I will humor you.

CEB
Peter replied, “Change your hearts and lives. Each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
CJB
Kefa answered them, “Turn from sin, return to God, and each of you be immersed on the authority of Yeshua the Messiah into forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh!
EHV
Peter answered them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Here is a bonus:
PHILLIPS
Peter told them, “You must repent and every one of you must be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ, so that you may have your sins forgiven and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For this great promise is for you and your children—yes, and for all who are far away, for as many as the Lord our God shall call to himself!”
NCB
Peter answered, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
NLV
Peter said to them, “Be sorry for your sins and turn from them and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and your sins will be forgiven. You will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
NTE
‘Turn back!’ replied Peter. ‘Be baptized – every single one of you – in the name of Jesus the Messiah, so that your sins can be forgiven, and you will receive the gift of the holy spirit.

Notice a future tense in all versions. This also applies to all Bibles in other languages.

God will not allow man to change His word.

 

[John146]

Not my opinion nor your opinion, but the Word of God is the authority.

1 John 3
[4] Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
[5] And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.
[6] Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
[7] Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
[8] He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
[9] Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. (NKJV)

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Lamar]

Nobody here is talking about refusing baptism... except you. That was not necessary.

Could you please give the Scripture that says baptism is for the "remission of sins"? (as opposed to remission for sins").

If you insist that water baptism is not so that/of/for the remission of sins you are most certainly are doing this.

By proclaiming that our sins are forgiven at some point before baptism you are feeding a false narrative to others.

 

[timemeddler]

You're conflating ignorant sin with willful sin. If we knowingly walk in sin, we lie and do not the truth.

1 John 2
[1] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
[2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
[6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

those were johns words, not mine, I'm still not sure what your getting at with willful sin though, I can sort see the logic of sin you didnt know about, but paul seems to differ and gives an interesting view.

14So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. 15I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. 16But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. 17So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
18And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.d I want to do what is right, but I can’t. 19I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. 20But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
21I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22I love God’s law with all my heart. 23But there is another powere within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. 24Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? 25Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

 

[Ted01]

Are you serious? Of vs. for? How does this matter?

But I will humor you.

CEB
Peter replied, “Change your hearts and lives. Each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
CJB
Kefa answered them, “Turn from sin, return to God, and each of you be immersed on the authority of Yeshua the Messiah into forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh!
EHV
Peter answered them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Here is a bonus:
PHILLIPS
Peter told them, “You must repent and every one of you must be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ, so that you may have your sins forgiven and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For this great promise is for you and your children—yes, and for all who are far away, for as many as the Lord our God shall call to himself!”
NCB
Peter answered, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
NLV
Peter said to them, “Be sorry for your sins and turn from them and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and your sins will be forgiven. You will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
NTE
‘Turn back!’ replied Peter. ‘Be baptized – every single one of you – in the name of Jesus the Messiah, so that your sins can be forgiven, and you will receive the gift of the holy spirit.

Notice a future tense in all versions. This also applies to all Bibles in other languages.

God will not allow man to change His word.

Strange list of versions... I wonder why you chose those and stayed away from ones most often used?

King James Bible
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

New International Version
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

English Standard Version
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Berean Study Bible
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New American Standard Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

You ask how does this matter? It matters a lot to me.

If you came to me and told me that you had been experiencing headaches lately... I might suggest that you take some aspirin for your headaches. Would you walk away assume that you should take some aspirin "in order" to get a headache? Probably not, right? You'd take the aspirin "because of" the headaches.
So why would people assume that to be baptized for the remission of sins means that it in order to have sins removed? It's not get baptized "in order" to remove sins; it's get baptized "because of" the remission of sins.

 

[Ted01]

If you insist that water baptism is not so that/of/for the remission of sins you are most certainly are doing this.

By proclaiming that our sins are forgiven at some point before baptism you are feeding a false narrative to others.

I don't understand the "blued-text" question... perhaps you could reword?

It might seem a false narrative to you... but many others both understand it and concur.

 

[07-07-07]

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Correct. So, have you confessed your sins and forsaken them? Apparently not, according to what you have been saying. Willful sin defiles you and you won't inherit God's kingdom that way. It's the Saints who go marching in, not sinners.

 

[mailmandan]

You assume much. My understanding comes directly from the word of God. I accept that scripture means exactly what it says. The problem is many are still blinded because of a refusal to just accept the word and obey God in order to experience the NT rebirth.

You assume much through your eisegesis. You keep saying that you accept scripture means exactly what it says, but that only seems to apply to your pet verses on water baptism and not on belief/faith. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Entrance into the body of Christ takes place today just as Peter promised on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:2-42) Those who believe in Jesus, repent and obey the command to be baptized in water in His name receive remission of their sin, and are promised the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I already thoroughly explained Acts 2:38 multiple times in this thread and properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. *See post #265.

The experience parallels Jesus' words to Nicodemus. (John 3:3-5) Furthermore, confirming scriptures reveal the experience was not exclusive to the Jewish population but pertained to all of humanity. As such, it applies to everyone living today. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18; 22:16, 10:43-48, 19:1-6)

More eisegesis on your part. In John 3:5, Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" and NOT born of baptism and the Spirit. Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The experience here parallels Jesus' words to Nicodemus. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

Also "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.

 

[07-07-07]

those were johns words, not mine, I'm still not sure what your getting at with willful sin though, I can sort see the logic of sin you didnt know about, but paul seems to differ and gives an interesting view.

14So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. 15I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. 16But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. 17So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
18And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.d I want to do what is right, but I can’t. 19I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. 20But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
21I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22I love God’s law with all my heart. 23But there is another powere within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. 24Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? 25Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

Paul was no sinner under grace and your misunderstanding of Romans 7 has already been addressed. But here it is again:

 

[mailmandan]

Receiving sight results from readily accepting and obeying the command relevant to the NT rebirth: "...Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." Acts 2:37-41

For the upteenth time, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

In regard to Acts 2:41, those who gladly received his word (upon repentance/faith) were "afterwards" baptized.

Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

 

[Ted01]

Why do people with (arguably) incorrect understanding of Scripture post links to sites where they learned their(arguably) incorrect views?

 

[mailmandan]

Obedience is the key...

"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." Heb 11:7

Spoken like a true works-salvationist. So, when did Noah find grace? Before or after he built the ark? Was Noah a preacher of righteousness before or not until after he built the ark? It was by or "out of" faith that Noah built the ark. Noah's obedience was a demonstration of his faith and not the origin of it.

 

[Nehemiah6]

... became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." Heb 11:7...

This phrase automatically cancels any idea that obedience is the key to salvation (justification). The righteousness which is by faith is IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS. It it the absolute righteousness of Christ which is put to the spiritual account of the sinner, when he or she believes God, and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption.

The Bible is crystal clear. We are justified by GRACE through FAITH + NOTHING. And Abraham is presented as the example. Abraham BELIEVED GOD and it was imputed to him for righteousness. This was long before Abraham sacrificed Isaac.

But the average person will say "That ain't fair". We must do something to merit our salvation. That's because many (if not most) do not really understand what Christ did on behalf of sinners.

 

[07-07-07]

Why do people with (arguably) incorrect understanding of Scripture post links to sites where they learned their(arguably) incorrect views?

Because the information is for a larger audience, not necessarily to those who don't have ears to hear.

 

[Ted01]

Because the information is for a larger audience, not necessarily to those who don't have ears to hear.

But you post it for those of us, who have neither ears to hear it, nor the desire to be bored by incorrect information.
Are you casting your pearls before swine?