Saved by faith alone?

[Cameron143]

Yes I can agree on this for sure.

But I have worked on skid row and I have seen people be born again and have the light of Christ shine through for a time.......but living on the streets they go back to their former life and can never break free because they have no way to escape.

Many die of over dose or alcoholic poisoning. Yes they were saved and grew for a time, came to meetings for a time, spoke about being set free for a time, but either by choice or the compulsion of the flesh they were not able to reap the benefits of the salvation from sin.

So in real life, not in the church pew these doctrines of men are just that.
Salvation is gift from God but not everyone lives out the gift they were given, but they did indeed receive the gift because God is gracious we do not promise Him obedience for the gift in order to receive the gift.

God does not work the same way in each person's life, sometimes He lets them go to their baser nature and sometimes He removes them from planet earth.

Real life is messy and determining another person's eternal estate is impossible because we are unfit to judge to that degree. My guess is some were indeed saved while others only mimicked salvation.
I have known some who started well only to fall away and others who struggled at every point but who always returned.
One danger is to allow our experience and emotions to flavor our understanding. Often we desire salvation for an individual much more than they do for themselves.

 

[HeIsHere]

Real life is messy and determining another person's eternal estate is impossible because we are unfit to judge to that degree. My guess is some were indeed saved while others only mimicked salvation.
I have known some who started well only to fall away and others who struggled at every point but who always returned.
One danger is to allow our experience and emotions to flavor our understanding. Often we desire salvation for an individual much more than they do for themselves.

I understand this view and to some degree I have seen it as well.

I think we can at times discern the spirit of Christ in a person, this is not emotional it is spiritual.

Even on this message board I can discern those who have the Spirit of Christ not by their character but by their insight into scripture even though there are some diverse theological views they have a testimony that is sound.

Some people do not return,

I do not believe in a God of compulsion that makes no sense to me given that Jesus modelled obedience not from compulsion but from His love for the Father and humanity.

 

[Wansvic]

I've read them. We just disagree. You believe obedience is necessary for or as a cause of salvation. I believe it is an outcome of true salvation. That's what you find in Ephesians 2:8-10. It says we are saved by grace through faith. Then it clearly states not by works. Then it says we were saved for works. That's why I believe as I do.

Man did nothing to warrant God's grace in providing a means of salvation.

Note scripture prior to Eph 2:
"That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"Eph 1:12-13

The word of truth, gospel of salvation that Paul preached to the Ephesians that resulted in their being sealed with the Holy Ghost/Spirit is as follows:

"He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (water)
AND when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
And all the men were about twelve." Acts 19:2-7

 

[Cameron143]

Man did nothing to warrant God's grace in providing a means of salvation.

Note scripture prior to Eph 2:
"That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"Eph 1:12-13

The word of truth, gospel of salvation that Paul preached to the Ephesians that resulted in their being sealed with the Holy Ghost/Spirit is as follows:

"He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (water)
AND when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
And all the men were about twelve." Acts 19:2-7

That's what happened in that particular case. But something being present at the time someone believes doesn't make it causal.

 

[Cameron143]

I understand this view and to some degree I have seen it as well.

I think we can at times discern the spirit of Christ in a person, this is not emotional it is spiritual.

Even on this message board I can discern those who have the Spirit of Christ not by their character but by their insight into scripture even though there are some diverse theological views they have a testimony that is sound.

Some people do not return,

I do not believe in a God of compulsion that makes no sense to me given that Jesus modelled obedience not from compulsion but from His love for the Father and humanity.

I don't believe God compels salvation. People themselves must believe. I do believe God enables salvation and is far from passive in it.

 

[HeIsHere]

I don't believe God compels salvation. People themselves must believe. I do believe God enables salvation and is far from passive in it.

Yes agree, I meant the obedience after salvation, believers can and do quench/grieve the Spirit, that is why discipleship is so important and sadly missing in our church culture.

 

[Cameron143]

Yes agree, I meant the obedience after salvation, believers can and do quench/grieve the Spirit, that is why discipleship is so important and sadly missing in our church culture.

I agree wholeheartedly. The great commission is about discipleship...making disciples...teaching them. For some reason the church sees its purpose as making converts, but Jesus said that He would build His church.
Until this changes, the church will be weak and ineffectual as a whole. To be honest, most churches are simply playing church and have a form of godliness without any real power.

 

[Wansvic]

That's what happened in that particular case. But something being present at the time someone believes doesn't make it causal.

The account reveals the 12 believed Paul's entire message and acted in accordance. (Acts 19:1-7)

Do you not see the clear parallel with each detailed conversion experience referenced in the Acts of the Apostles. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16) Each confirms the need to believe in Jesus, repent, be water baptized in His name, (for remission of sin) and receive the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost/Spirit.

No one can SEE or ENTER the kingdom of God without first having their sins dwelt with AND receiving the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Cameron143]

The account reveals the 12 believed Paul's entire message and acted in accordance. (Acts 19:1-7)

Do you not see the clear parallel with each detailed conversion experience referenced in the Acts of the Apostles. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16) Each confirms the need to believe in Jesus, repent, be water baptized in His name, (for remission of sin) and receive the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost/Spirit.

No one can SEE or ENTER the kingdom of God without first having their sins dwelt with AND receiving the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost.

I agree with your summation. I disagree with you on how someone comes to that point.

I've followed your posts on a number of threads and don't feel I can add to what others have already shared with you. But I do appreciate that you have taken the time and effort to share as you have.

 

[Wansvic]

Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. ...

Obedience is the key...

"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." Heb 11:7

 

[Magenta]

The account reveals the 12 believed Paul's entire message and acted in accordance. (Acts 19:1-7)

When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they
spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all.

Baptism did not give the Holy Spirit in those cases.

 

[Ted01]

How is it then that Cornelius, et al, received the Holy Spirit (and thus, forgiveness/Salvation) before getting Saved?

 

[HeIsHere]

This is for @wattie

 

[Wansvic]

Wansvic is absolutely obsessed with water baptism and would walk around mountains of grace in order to find water....

Actually I am obsessed with sharing God's word, and that includes the necessity of obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin.

Ever considered why the enemy has fought tooth and nail, throughout church history, against people accepting the truth about water baptism? It's because according to the word, an individual's sins are washed away upon submitting to water baptism IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST. (Luke 24:47, Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38...)

In addition, scripture reveals without belief in Jesus' sacrifice, repentance, and being indwelt with the Holy Ghost a person hasn't experienced the NT rebirth. Belief requires accepting it all, not just part of the message.

I share in the hope that others will study the scriptures and see for themselves.

 

[Wansvic]

How is it then that Cornelius, et al, received the Holy Spirit (and thus, forgiveness/Salvation) before getting Saved?

The conversion experience requires both the indwelling of the Holy Ghost and being baptized in water in the name of Jesus.

Notice Peter said that THROUGH THE NAME OF JESUS those who believe will receive remission of sins. When was the name of Jesus referenced? The command was given to be baptized in the name of the Lord. (water) This parallels what Peter said at Pentecost; be baptized EVERYONE of you IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST for THE REMISSION OF SIN:

Acts 10:43-48
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."

 

[Ted01]

The conversion experience requires both the indwelling of the Holy Ghost and being baptized in water in the name of Jesus.

Notice Peter said that THROUGH THE NAME OF JESUS those who believe will receive remission of sins. When was the name of Jesus referenced? The command was given to be baptized in the name of the Lord. (water) This parallels what Peter said at Pentecost; be baptized EVERYONE of you IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST for THE REMISSION OF SIN:

Acts 10:43-48
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."

Interesting, but a bit confusing...
Did they or did they not receive the Holy Spirit before being baptized?
It seems quite clear to me that they did.

 

[07-07-07]

Read verse 16.
You do not obey and then walk in the Spirit. You walk in the Spirit and thereby do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
You seem to have it backwards. You think in and of yourself you have the capacity to obey and please God. This is simply not so. It is only as we walk in the Spirit that we will not sin. This is why we are to seek first his kingdom and His RIGHTEOUSNESS.

You seem to be playing semantics to justify the notion that Christians can still sin a little and still be saved. Truth is, many Christians struggle with sin because they never really separate from the ways of the world. It's impossible to walk in the Spirit and still defile yourself too; and thus, they sin a little here and there. They are not saved. It's time for them to let their first love in, and obey. Consistent praying, fasting and living in the Word are the key spiritual exercises to walk in the Spirit.

Galatians 5
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
[20] idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Cameron143]

You seem to be playing semantics to justify the notion that Christians can still sin a little and still be saved. Truth is, many Christians struggle with sin because they never really separate from the ways of the world. It's impossible to walk in the Spirit and still defile yourself too; and thus, they sin a little here and there. They are not saved. It's time for them to let their first love in, and obey. Consistent praying, fasting and living in the Word are the key spiritual exercises to walk in the Spirit.

Galatians 5
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
[20] idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Do you believe it is possible for an individual to live in sinless perfect in this present world?

 

[07-07-07]

When was the last time you were saved? Today? In the last hour?

Keep defiling yourself with sin and find out at the end of your journey that the door will be closed to you. It takes real love for Jesus to walk with Him in holiness and righteousness.

Mark 7
[20] And He [Jesus] said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man.
[21] For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
[22] thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.
[23] All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”

 

[07-07-07]

But it does NOT say that we are saved by doing these things......

It reads that they who belong to Jesus have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Where does that leave those who do not crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts? Outside of the Kingdom.

Revelation 22
[12] “And behold, I [Jesus] am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
[13] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
[14] Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
[15] But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
[16] “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”