Salvation is a Free Gift.

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rogerg said:
In that case, it wouldn't be a free gift. Anything that someone must do to obtain it, makes it theirs only by their doing, and therefore, not a free gift. To be truly free, it must be imputed to someone, placed into their possession in spite of, and apart from, anything they may do, otherwise, it isn't free.

[Tit 3:5-7 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

[1Co 1:30 KJV]
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

[2Pe 1:1 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
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The book of James clearly says that Faith is not a good work. It is by Faith you are saved, not by works so men can glory. You are implying that a free gift isn't free because one would have to receive the gift. The gift is received by Faith, and as Scripture says, Faith is something we can "do" but it isn't a good work or we glory in. This is one of the most common and terrible mistakes Calvinists make and actually just blatantly not Biblical. Calvinists always think Faith is a good work or better said they say that was a good choice.

The gift is free because we didn't pay for it, just accepting it. And no, the acceptance of it is not earning it. When I give someone 5$, I earned the 5$, the receiver, accepting the 5$ is just receiving the free gift without earning it.
 
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Cameron143 said:
You missed the whole point of my last few posts. I don't confirm or deny anything about TULIP or Calvinism. I shared with you the condition of fallen man,as well as how that relates to belief and faith.
If you disagree with what I posted, feel free to share your position. But if you are going to label my position rather than discuss ideas, I know you aren't really interested in ideas that you don't already hold. If that's the case, I also have no interest in proceeding.
That said, Jesus Himself said that all the Father had given Him will come to Him that He will not cast them away, but raise them up on the last day...John 6:37-39. I believe these are those spoken of in Ephesians 1:4 as chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.
I don't see in scripture God choosing anyone for death or destruction.
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I highly recommend you watch this video on the scripture you posted:

 
Calmador said:
The book of James clearly says that Faith is not a good work. It is by Faith you are saved, not by works so men can glory. You are implying that a free gift isn't free because one would have to receive the gift. The gift is received by Faith, and as Scripture says, Faith is something we can "do" but it isn't a good work or we glory in. This is one of the most common and terrible mistakes Calvinists make and actually just blatantly not Biblical. Calvinists always think Faith is a good work or better said they say that was a good choice.

The gift is free because we didn't pay for it, just accepting it. And no, the acceptance of it is not earning it. When I give someone 5$, I earned the 5$, the receiver, accepting the 5$ is just receiving the free gift without earning it.
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In Greek any work, one that that takes no effort or one that takes effort can be poiEma. A work that takes effort can also be ergon. Ergon is never a work that takes no effort. Calvinists try to make faith, a poiEma, a work that takes no effort, into an ergon theologically. That is twisting and wresting scripture.
 
Salvation/eternal life is a free gift applied to all the sinners Christ died for, His Sheep or Gods elect for He paid the debt of consequences for their sins, in return they receive eternal life as a free gift Rom 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The word gift is the greek word charisma :

  1. a favour with which one receives without any merit of his own
  2. the gift of divine grace
  3. the gift of faith, knowledge, holiness, virtue
  4. the economy of divine grace, by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ laid hold of by faith
So included in the Gift of God is the gift of Faith, so everyone whom sins He died for will be graced with the gift of Faith to believe in Jesus.
 
Calmador said:
The book of James clearly says that Faith is not a good work. It is by Faith you are saved, not by works so men can glory. You are implying that a free gift isn't free because one would have to receive the gift.
Click to expand...

We are saved by the faith of Christ, not by our faith. A man produced faith has no righteousness, only Christ's does. To those of us chosen to salvation, by the Holy Spirit, His faith is imputed to us. By that, we believe in Him. If we have to accept "the gift" to receive it, we would be paying for it and hence not a free gift. Any "have to" that is associated to the receiving of faith/salvation, makes that requirement both a work and a law, but not a gift - is all by Christ, nothing by us. Christ is the Saviour, we are not.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
 
PaulThomson said:
That's an interesting text. I had not noticed that phrasing before.

I would suggest that before sin came into the world and death through sin, the population of the planet could have progressed quite adequately with a child every century or every decade. But now people would be dying off from old age and from diseases and animal attacks and murders etc. So God had to make women have more children faster. And, of course, more children and more of them dying would mean more grief for mothers.

Why do you ask? What do you think?
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Animal attacks wouldn't have started until after the flood. And initially people lived a long time. During the flood God whittled down the human race to 8 people, so I don't think He was worried about numbers. What else might this increase of children represent?
 
Calmador said:
The book of James clearly says that Faith is not a good work. It is by Faith you are saved, not by works so men can glory. You are implying that a free gift isn't free because one would have to receive the gift. The gift is received by Faith, and as Scripture says, Faith is something we can "do" but it isn't a good work or we glory in. This is one of the most common and terrible mistakes Calvinists make and actually just blatantly not Biblical. Calvinists always think Faith is a good work or better said they say that was a good choice.

The gift is free because we didn't pay for it, just accepting it. And no, the acceptance of it is not earning it. When I give someone 5$, I earned the 5$, the receiver, accepting the 5$ is just receiving the free gift without earning it.
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Amen!

Faith is merely a proclamation or statement of belief. Faith indicates where your trust is at. Where your belief is rooted in. It' not an action, not a choice, but a mindset. If I were to say to the mountain, be moved. Nothing happens because I am trying to make Faith into an Action. But if I say to the mountain, be moved in the Name of Jesus, I am putting the Action into the Power of Jesus and He does the WORKS by removing the mountain.

So many here don't have a clue what Faith is.

It's a lifestyle. Like I eat meat. Wherever I go my food portions include meat. Wherever I go my belief is in Jesus which is Faith. It's a mindset.

On these forums they preach Faith as a works. So they really do not fully believe in Jesus because they are convinced it's doing a work to do as such. But there's no work at all to live a lifestyle that focuses on living righteously. I get out of bed and say thank you Jesus. I did no work but confirmed who I believe in by giving Honor to who woke me up today. I confirmed that Jesus did the WORKS today to wake me up.
 
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rogerg said:
We are saved by the faith of Christ, not by our faith. A man produced faith has no righteousness, only Christ's does. To those of us chosen to salvation, by the Holy Spirit, His faith is imputed to us. By that, we believe in Him. If we have to accept "the gift" to receive it, we would be paying for it and hence not a free gift. Any "have to" that is associated to the receiving of faith/salvation, makes that requirement both a work and a law, but not a gift - is all by Christ, nothing by us. Christ is the Saviour, we are not.
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This reply is mainly for other posters, to give them a different perspective on your propf-texts.

The greek word pistis can mean either faith or faithfulness. .We are saved by the faithfulness of Christ, not by our faithfulness. Jesus' faith is not imputed to us. Jesus' faith, which enables us to do greater works, is imparted to us through our faith by the Holy Spirit after we receive the Holy Spirit through believing in Jesus with our faith, putting our faith in Christ.

2 Thess. 3:10 says, "Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see yourfaith, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith. "

If our faith as believers in not our faith, but Jesus' faith, how could there be anything lacking in our faith. Is Jesus' faith lacking anything?

rogerg said:
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
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9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faithfulness of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by [our] faith:

rogerg said:
[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that [Christ's] faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
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[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that [Abraham's] faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also:
12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

rogerg said:
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
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[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faithfulness of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

rogerg said:
[[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
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We do have access to the faith of Jesus through our union with Him AFTER we receive the Lord by faith, and this faith is at a quantum leap level beyond our own. But we do not have access to Jesus' faith before we are regenerated by putting our faith in Him and He gives a new spirit and sends the Holy Spirit to us, and comes with the Father to live in our new holy, pure, perfect, sealed spirit. Then everything that is in Jesus is in us, but we must access His love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness and ffaith/aithfulness through exercising our faith to acquire and express them.
 
Cameron143 said:
Animal attacks wouldn't have started until after the flood. And initially people lived a long time. During the flood God whittled down the human race to 8 people, so I don't think He was worried about numbers. What else might this increase of children represent?
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I gave my opinion. What do you think is the correct answer you were looking for to your question?
 
PaulThomson said:
This reply is mainly for other posters, to give them a different perspective on your propf-texts.

The greek word pistis can mean either faith or faithfulness. .We are saved by the faithfulness of Christ, not by our faithfulness. Jesus' faith is not imputed to us. Jesus' faith, which enables us to do greater works, is imparted to us through our faith by the Holy Spirit after we receive the Holy Spirit through believing in Jesus with our faith, putting our faith in Christ.

2 Thess. 3:10 says, "Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see yourfaith, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith. "

If our faith as believers in not our faith, but Jesus' faith, how could there be anything lacking in our faith. Is Jesus' faith lacking anything?
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Because the recipient's faith grows into the faith of Christ they have been given by God. His faith has been placed within them, and by/through it they grow in belief in and knowledge of the gospel. By that process, eventually all Christians will come to the fullness of the knowledge of Christ - but it is anchored in, and comes from, Christ's faith. The receiving of Christ's faith is the faith
that brings salvation, a person's faith does not. All Christian attributes come as the byproducts of the receiving of His faith.
A spiritually dead person cannot give to themselves either spiritual life or faith.

Faith has substance and is evidence. Acquiring faith is not just the standalone mental exercise that comes from an intellectual effort which leads to the placing of trust in Christ, but something that comes as an outgrowth of the substance of faith - Christ's faith. A person's faith (if a true faith,) cannot grow outside of Christ's faith first being present within them.

[Heb 11:1 KJV] 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

As brightfame52 has repeatedly posted, and with which I totally concur, natural man - unsaved man - does not have spiritual discernment to give to themselves a true faith in Christ. IOW, without first being saved and given faith, it is impossible for man to truly comprehend things spiritual, and hence, they cannot have faith. Here, read it closely.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.


Do believe that Christ is the Saviour or that man must save himself?
 
PaulThomson said:
I gave my opinion. What do you think is the correct answer you were looking for to your question?
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I thought new information might give you a fresh perspective. Your former answer concentrated on God's consideration from man's perspective. What might God have been establishing from His own perspective?
 
Cameron143 said:
I thought new information might give you a fresh perspective. Your former answer concentrated on God's consideration from man's perspective. What might God have been establishing from His own perspective?
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You tell me. Do you have too much time on your hands to be bothered about getting to your point?
 
rogerg said:
Because the recipient's faith grows into the faith of Christ they have been given by God. His faith has been placed within them, and by/through it they grow in belief in and knowledge of the gospel. By that process, eventually all Christians will come to the fullness of the knowledge of Christ - but it is anchored in, and comes from, Christ's faith. The receiving of Christ's faith is the faith
that brings salvation, a person's faith does not. All Christian attributes come as the byproducts of the receiving of His faith.
A spiritually dead person cannot give to themselves either spiritual life or faith.

Faith has substance and is evidence. Acquiring faith is not just the standalone mental exercise that comes from an intellectual effort which leads to the placing of trust in Christ, but something that comes as an outgrowth of the substance of faith - Christ's faith. A person's faith (if a true faith,) cannot grow outside of Christ's faith first being present within them.

[Heb 11:1 KJV] 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

As brightfame52 has repeatedly posted, and with which I totally concur, natural man - unsaved man - does not have spiritual discernment to give to themselves a true faith in Christ. IOW, without first being saved and given faith, it is impossible for man to truly comprehend things spiritual, and hence, they cannot have faith. Here, read it closely.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.


Do believe that Christ is the Saviour or that man must save himself?
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The Bible says both. Christ is the Saviour and we must save ourselves from this untoward generation.

Acts 2:38 "Repent and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is TO YOU, and TO YOUR CHILDREN, and TO ALL who are afar off, even AS MANT AS the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, "SAVE YOURSELVES from this untoward generation."
 
PaulThomson said:
You tell me. Do you have too much time on your hands to be bothered about getting to your point?
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For someone who poses thought experiments, I wonder at your impatience. But perhaps after sin, God introduces the elect into humanity.
 
rogerg said:
Sorry you can't have it both ways - He either is ,or, He isn't - pick one and only one.
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The Bible says both. I'll go with the Bible. You are free to want to make up doctrines that replace what Scripture says with what you prefer. I don't have to accept the premises of your false dichotomies.
 
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