Predestination is misunderstood...

[Thunderrr-mental]

Can you give the scriptural reference?

I already have 1 Samuel 10:6

 

[Cameron143]

I already have 1 Samuel 10:6

Thanks.
So the question arises is what the Spirit coming upon someone entails. A second question would be was the transformation spiritual in nature or merely fit to be a king.

I believe it to be a natural transformation. If you remember, when Samuel was introducing Saul as king he was hiding in fear.

 

[Magenta]

The fact that God made us in His image infers freewill.

You are not wrong about much, but... ouch! Such a logical fallacy we have here LOL

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Private interpretation. Are you Catholic?

Any scholar can look at the Greek and see the present tense word used to denote we are continuing to be sanctified. As apprised to the word perfected. Which is a perfect verb denoting it was a completed action

You want to ignore a fact to continue to idolize your bible feel free

Don’t attack those of us who actually study to show ourselves approved. And rightly divide the word of God

I've seen this response many times in this thread by @Johann asking many people if they are a calvinist.

Now your asking if someone is Catholic.

These ignorant responses make people scared to speak, I'm ashamed and appalled by what's taking place here.

Totally disrespectful.

 

[Rufus]

Saul was rejected as king. Not salvation

So God saved someone from whom he removed his love/mercy/lovingkindess (2Sam 7:15)? Furthermore, Saul lived virtually his entire life in sin hating David and always breathing murderous threats upon him. He was consumed with murdering David. At the very best, I'd say Saul's spiritual condition is highly questionable. As far as I'm concerned Saul was in the same camp with God as Judas was with Christ! Both eminently qualify as those spoken of in this passage:

Heb 6:4-6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
NIV

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Thanks.
So the question arises is what the Spirit coming upon someone entails. A second question would be was the transformation spiritual in nature or merely fit to be a king.

I believe it to be a natural transformation. If you remember, when Samuel was introducing Saul as king he was hiding in fear.

You asked for the scripture, and I gave you it.

The scripture posted was from Samuel, given from Samuel, a direct message from the lord to Saul

Do you accept that or not.

 

[Rufus]

You are not wrong about much, but... ouch! Such a logical fallacy we have here LOL

Really? Would you give us your definition of freewill?

 

[John146]

Private interpretation. Are you Catholic?

Any scholar can look at the Greek and see the present tense word used to denote we are continuing to be sanctified. As apprised to the word perfected. Which is a perfect verb denoting it was a completed action

You want to ignore a fact to continue to idolize your bible feel free

Don’t attack those of us who actually study to show ourselves approved. And rightly divide the word of God

Attack? That’s a hoot. Catholic? Nope, new versions are more RCC. God‘s ord defines itself. No need for a Greek lexicon. Do you believe a translation can be inspired? Be careful how you answer.

 

[Rufus]

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rom 10:17 So, then, emunah comes from hearing, and hearing comes through the Dvar HaMoshiach.


So then faith comes by hearing,.... That is, by preaching; for the word hearing is used in the same sense as in the preceding verse; and designs the report of the Gospel, or the preaching of the word, which is the means God makes use of, to convey faith into the hearts of his people; for preachers are ministers, or instruments, by whom others believe:
and hearing by the word of God; or "of Christ", as some copies read, and so do the Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions; and intends either the holy Scriptures, which have God for their author, and Christ for the subject of them; and which furnish the men of God, or ministers of the Gospel, with proper materials to preach; and so hearing or preaching is by them, or else the command of God or Christ, which ρημα more properly signifies; and the sense is, that men preach the Gospel in obedience to the commandment of the everlasting God, and according to the orders, mission, and commission, warrant and authority, of the Lord Jesus Christ: and so these words are the conclusion, and sum of the whole; that as invocation is owing to faith, so faith to hearing, hearing to preaching, preaching to a mission; whence it follows, that it is the original will of God, to send forth his apostles and ministers, to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles, as well as to the Jews; that they hearing might believe, and believing call upon the Lord, and so be saved by him: it is a saying of the Jews, שמיעה בדבור תליא, "hearing depends upon the word" (e).
(e) Zohar in Deut. fol. 110. 3.
Gill


faith. *Rom_10:8; *Rom_10:14, **Rom_1:16, *Luk_16:29-31, *1Co_1:18-24, Gal_3:2; Gal_3:5, Eph_2:8, *Col_1:4-6, **1Th_2:13, *2Th_2:13; *2Th_2:14, *Heb_4:2, *Jas_1:18-21, *1Pe_1:23-25; *1Pe_2:1; *1Pe_2:2.
by hearing. T888, **Rom_1:16, Job_42:5, Psa_18:44; *Psa_19:7; *Psa_19:8; *Psa_19:11; *Psa_119:105; *Psa_119:130, Pro_6:23; Pro_8:33-34, Isa_2:3; Isa_55:2-3; Isa_55:10-12, *Mar_4:24; *Mar_4:25, Luk_9:11, Joh_1:37; **Joh_5:39; Joh_6:63; **Joh_20:31, Act_4:4; Act_10:22; Act_10:36-43; Act_15:7; +**Act_17:11; +**Act_17:12, 1Co_1:21, *Gal_3:2; *Gal_3:5, Eph_1:13, Col_1:6, Heb_4:2, *Jas_1:21, *2Pe_1:19, *Rev_1:3.
and hearing. FS16, +Gen_1:27, +*Jer_23:28; +*Jer_23:29, *Mar_4:24, Luk_8:11; Luk_8:21; +*Luk_11:28, *2Co_2:17, **Heb_4:12; **Heb_4:13, Rev_1:9.
by the word. Gr. rhēma (S# G4487), Mar_9:32 note. T1115, Rom_10:8, *Pro_4:20-22, **1Th_2:13, +**2Ti_3:15-17, *Jas_1:18, *1Pe_1:23.
of God. Luk_3:2; **Luk_4:4, Joh_3:34; **Joh_8:47, Eph_6:17, Heb_6:5; Heb_11:3; Heb_13:7, **1Pe_1:25, Significant ancient authorities support the alternate reading "of Christ," but Gifford cites Meyer, De Wette, Lange, Philippi, etc., who "agree in regarding it as a gloss intended to define more precisely the meaning of "by the word of God." Furthermore, if the alternate reading is accepted, it is the only occurrence of rēma Christou in the New Testament. Joh_5:38; Joh_8:37, Col_3:16, 1Pe_1:11, 1Jn_1:10.

Shalom brother-very tired.
J.

But even the Gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16; Jas 1:18), is it not? To be born again means precisely to be born of the Spirit and the Word. None of us can boast of our faith (Eph 2:9), as though someone revealed Christ to us or we figured it out all by ourselves (Mat 16:17).

 

[Rufus]

you missed this out

2 Corinthians 3:18



18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.


Which means sanctification is a process.

You must be a Jew if you don't teach water baptism is necessary to be saved.


Only a Jew could teach what you teach.

.

Was the thief on the cross baptized?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Thanks.
So the question arises is what the Spirit coming upon someone entails. A second question would be was the transformation spiritual in nature or merely fit to be a king.

I believe it to be a natural transformation. If you remember, when Samuel was introducing Saul as king he was hiding in fear.

So your position is the spirit will come upon a man to change a man naturally..

Way to go Cameron,

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Was the thief on the cross baptized?

He was more than likely resurrected in Christ, after Christ went down to paradise and woke him up.

When your baptised your also resurrected in Christ.

Then of course the dead in Christ can be raised through a sea in Christ.

Have you any more narrow minded questions.

 

[Rufus]

no, all it does is show predestination as something to be scared to talk about, for fear of being jumped on, and show predestination as a bad thing.

Why are you afraid of God's truth? Don't you know that his Truth sets us free (Jn 8:32) from law of sin (including carnal-mindedness) and death? I love (2Thess 2:10) and rejoice (1Cor 13:6) in all God's truth, for perfect love drives out all fear (1Jn 4:18).

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Why are you afraid of God's truth?

It's you who is willfully rejecting being baptised not me.

And also willfully rejecting predestination

 

[Johann]

But even the Gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16; Jas 1:18), is it not? To be born again means precisely to be born of the Spirit and the Word. None of us can boast of our faith (Eph 2:9), as though someone revealed Christ to us or we figured it out all by ourselves (Mat 16:17).

Of course brother-


Certainly, the Gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16). The Greek word for "power" in this verse is δύναμις (dunamis), which refers to inherent power or ability. The Gospel of Christ is not just a message, but it is the power of God that brings salvation to those who believe.
Furthermore, James 1:18 states that God brought us forth by the word of truth, which is the Gospel. The Greek word for "brought us forth" is ἀπεκύησεν (apekýēsen), which means to give birth to or bring forth. This verse emphasizes that the Gospel is the means by which God brings people into a new life in Christ.

To be born again means to be born of the Spirit and the Word, as Jesus explained to Nicodemus in John 3:5-6. The Greek word for "born again" is ἀναγεννηθῆναι (anagennēthēnai), which means to be born anew or from above. This new birth is not a physical one, but a spiritual one that comes through faith in Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:9 reminds us that our salvation is not of ourselves, but it is a gift from God. The Greek word for "gift" is δώρον (dōron), which refers to a free gift or present. We cannot boast of our faith because it is not something we earned or achieved on our own, but it is a gift from God.

Finally, Matthew 16:17 shows that it is God who reveals Christ to us. The Greek word for "revealed" is ἀπεκάλυψεν (apekalupsen), which means to uncover or reveal. Peter's confession of Jesus as the Christ was not something he figured out on his own, but it was revealed to him by the Father.

In summary, the Gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation, and it is through the Word of truth that God brings people into a new life in Christ. To be born again means to be born of the Spirit and the Word, and our salvation is a gift from God that we cannot boast of. It is God who reveals Christ to us, and we respond in faith to His revelation.

Not to sound so "sophomoric"-


According to 1 Corinthians 2:14, the natural man, or the unregenerate individual, cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God because they appear foolish and illogical to him. These things are spiritually discerned, meaning they require the presence and guidance of the Holy Spirit to be properly interpreted and understood. Here are the key terms and phrases from the Greek text:

φύσεως, phuseōs: natural, belonging to the flesh, earthly
τὰ πneumατικά, ta pneumaika: spiritual things
ἀνοήτους, anoētos: foolish
ἐξέρχονται, exerchonta: appear
ἄνθρωπον, anthropon: man
ψυχικὸν, psychikon: animal, earthly
διακρίνειν, diakrinin: discern

These concepts are further elaborated upon in Romans 8:5-10, which contrasts the natural man with the spiritual man. The natural man is described as being hostile toward God and unable to please Him, whereas the spiritual man is described as being in harmony with God and capable of pleasing Him.
In conclusion, the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God because they are spiritually discerned and appear foolish to him. Only those who possess the Holy Spirit can truly understand and appreciate the things of the Spirit.

Johann.

 

[Cameron143]

You are not wrong about much, but... ouch! Such a logical fallacy we have here LOL

Does God have freewill? Because ours is limited, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
You are very creative. To some extent we all are. But we are all limited in our creativity. It makes us less creative, but we are still creative.
I'll grant you that this isn't the focus of the verse. But I certainly believe its included in the verse.

 

[Cameron143]

You asked for the scripture, and I gave you it.

The scripture posted was from Samuel, given from Samuel, a direct message from the lord to Saul

Do you accept that or not.

I accept the verse. I disagree with your understanding of it.

 

[Cameron143]

So your position is the spirit will come upon a man to change a man naturally..

Way to go Cameron,

To empower him for a purpose...sure.

 

[Magenta]

Really? Would you give us your definition of freewill?

We do not need a definition of freewill to know that being made in God's image does not impart
all His qualities to us, and since Scripture does not speak of free will (which is how people usually
term it, not freewill), and freewill is only used maybe four times in Scripture, in regard to offerings,
going beyond what is said, especially in this case, is a huge mistake. Think about it.

How true are any of these statements, given as examples to show the error:

The fact that God made us in His image infers our sinlessness.

The fact that God made us in His image infers our sovereignty.

The fact that God made us in His image infers our eternality.

The fact that God made us in His image infers our omniscience.

The fact that God made us in His image infers our omnipotence.

Shall I go on?

 

[Rufus]

He was more than likely resurrected in Christ, after Christ went down to paradise and woke him up.

When your baptised your also resurrected in Christ.

Then of course the dead in Christ can be raised through a sea in Christ.

Pure conjecture! In fact, your response supports the argument that water baptism for believers is not necessary in this life before their death.

Have you any more narrow minded questions.

Okay just for you, I'll broaden my horizons, although I doubt this will make you happy either: Why are so hostile, belligerent and antagonistic to believers who don't subscribe to your personal beliefs? One of the marks of genuine Christian is love toward the brethren. But I see no love or charity in your posts.