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I actually meant to say 'should' be considered together...Yes -- all related passages must be considered together...
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I actually meant to say 'should' be considered together...Yes -- all related passages must be considered together...
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'trumpets' ( not 'wrath' ) --> before rapture... that great day of wrath starts with the rapture. and consists of the trumpets and the bowl judgments.
I can't stress enough dear Chosen,
Man's words NEVER trump the Word of God. It is not okay to say that the way to salvation has changed from the way it is today in the end times unless you have a clear passage that says it changed. You cite Rev 14:12 as proof that the way to Salvation has changed. Here it is (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
The above doesn't say the Gospel has changed. It doesn't say that all of a sudden works are needed in addition to faith. It doesn't even say who these saints are or where they are - heaven or earth. We have angels flying in heaven getting ready to preach to people on earth but we aren't told if these saints are the ones in heaven or on earth. For all we know these are the same saints told to rest in Rev 6 being told here to have patience. The point I'm trying to make Chosen is you can't make HUGE Doctrinal change leaps on the strength of one small and very ambiguous verse when to do so would fly in the face of the weight of all the clear verses that teach a contrary doctrine. You are doing it here and you and the other Pre-Tribbers do it with that theory.
- You don't have one single verse that places the Rapture before the Tribulation - NOT ONE.
- You don't have one single passage that even hints of a Rapture AND a second advent return of Christ - NOT ONE.
- You don't have a single verse that puts the church in heaven during the Tribulation - NOT ONE.
You need all three to prove your theory and you don't have one. If you had one you at least would have one leg to stand on but you are legless.
The Pre-Trib theory was arrived at by man imposing his desire to avoid Tribulation on the Word of God. These same men ignore the clear teachings of Jesus and Paul as to the timing of the Lord's return. By doing so, they trash multiple CLEAR teachings and doctrines and twist scriptures into conforming to their dispensational view rather than just reading and understand the Plain Word of God.
I do believe in one dispensation view and it is taught by Paul.
Ephesians 1:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Again, one "gathering." Do you see Paul saying that "all things in Christ will be gathered in the fullness of time? There can't be two gatherings, one before the trib and one after. Since we know there is one after because this timing is clearly taught, there can't be one before because the time isn't full before.
Also there cannot be a Pre-Trib Rapture because the Lord cannot and will not leave heaven until AFTER "His enemies become His footstool." This is stated in multiple places: Psa 110:1, Mat 22:44, Mark 12:36, Luke 20:42-43, Acts 2:34-35, Heb 1:13:
"The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool."
We know that the Lord's enemies will NOT be made HIS footstool until AFTER the Tribulation so he can't be coming in the clouds and leaving God's right hand before then.

Now answer this question Plain, we know that according to Matthew 25:31-46, that at the Judgment of the Nations which takes place at the Second Advent of the Lord Jesus Christ. We know from reading that passage of Scripture that no unbeliever will be permitted into the Kingdom. Only the Saints which made it through the Tribulation. So if only the Saints are permitted into the Millennial Kingdom, then that must mean that the Rapture occurs before the time of Jacob's trouble. Because resurrected Saints won't be able to marry nor will they be able to have children (Matthew 22:30).
Brother Chosen,
I think you are reading Matthew 24 wrong.
Matthew 24:35 and on is no longer discussing the Tribulation period. It is discussing the end of the age, which is the end of the world. These passages, Mat 24:35-51, which starts out with:
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
All deal with the final coming, Great White Throne stuff. One taken, one left refers to the unbeliever being taken, judged and cast into the Lake of Fire, then the righteous is gathered into the barn, see the Parable of the Wheat and Tares. "Like a thief in the night" and "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" are all end of world descriptions. They are not Trib passages. Like the days of Noah is end of the world, not Trib. The comparison to Days of Noah compare to total judgment of the world, which happens at the very end. The Trib is a partial judgment only. I was wrong earlier, the Day of the Lord is NOT during or before the Tribulation. It is at the very end of all ages. All of this ties with 2 Peter 3:10.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
See the thief in the night reference here? The Lord is not coming as a thief for the Trib. He comes in great glory and signs are given in the heavens.
These all ties with Luke 13:28, Mat 25:30, Mat 13:42-50 and other passages.
The Nations that are judged at the end of the Trib when the Lord sets up his 1,000 year reign are not all destroyed. Only those who came against Israel and God's people will be destroyed. Zech 13-14 describes the events.
As for who populates the millennium? Everyone who makes it through the Tribulation. You will have both believers and unbelievers. They will be ruled by Christ and the martyred. I am unclear if it will be all martyred throughout history or just the ones beheaded during the Trib.
See Rev 20:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Clearly you have nations remaining or how could Jesus rule them with a rod of iron? We know that the 1/3 remnant of Israel are believers. They certainly did not get "raptured." But then again my view of the Rapture and yours is very different. I don't think anyone gets taken alive up to heaven. I think they are gathered, those who are worthy.
Matthew 25:31-46 is a reference to the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Judgment of the Nations. The Judgment of the Nations takes place 1000 years before the Great White Throne Judgment. The Judgment of the Nations is before the 1,000 year Reign of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Great White Throng is after the 1000 year Reign of the Lord Jesus Christ.
And according to Matthew 25:31-46, no unbelievers make it into the Millennial Kingdom. Only saved people.
So that puts the Rapture before the time of Jacob's trouble. Since at the Rapture, every Christian gets their glorifed bodies. And in our glorified bodies, we cannot procreate nor marry. Since we will be as the angels on Heaven ( Matt. 22:30).
Also plain, you did not answer my other question. Are you mid trib.?
Brother Chosen,
It appears only the martyred (whether Trib or all is uncertain) get "Raptured." The rest of the dead rest until the 1,000 years are up. This is a major change of view for me but it all makes sense and agrees with John 6:40, 44, 54 and John 11:24. These passages all refer to the righteous being resurrected, "AT THE LAST DAY." I always saw that as the last day of the Tribulation but it seems clear that it is the LAST DAY of this old Earth which is confirmed by Rev 20:5.
I was sold once I saw this again from John 12. Now we have the sinner and the believer both coming back to life on the same last day. Nowhere are we taught that the sinner is resurrected at the Rapture. John 11:24 deals with Martha discussing Lazarus. Since Lazarus was a believer, he should be raised at the Rapture if the Rapture theory was correct. But he isn't, he is raised at the last day too.
John 4:
48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
So, the Rapture is a partial rapture of martyrs only and it happens during or at the end of the Trib. This is why we see the scene in heaven dealing with the martyrs at the 5th seal. They are anxious to return to earth to rule. This is why Paul talks so much about the saints Resting in Romans 2.
So brother Chosen, we were both wrong.
I believe there is a rapture of the two witnesses (See Rev. 11:3-12) somewhere in the middle of the tribulation period.
But please do not get that confused with the the rapture of the Body of Christ, which is before the tribulation (time of Jacob's trouble).
If it makes you feel better my friend, I don't know if I have what it takes either. If Peter can deny Christ, anyone can. I was hoping I could last through the trumpets but now it appears obvious Jesus doesn't return until the end, Armageddon.I think pre-tribers are afraid that they might have to endure the big one prophesied. If one thought that that might be a possibility, maybe there would be a very sincere prayer like I have been lead to offer over and over. Don't know. That's just-me. It kinda scares me some, because I know I don't have what it takes. I know God does though, so I have to put my trust in Him if in fact I have to go through it unto death. Just sayin'
If it makes you feel better my friend, I don't know if I have what it takes either. If Peter can deny Christ, anyone can. I was hoping I could last through the trumpets but now it appears obvious Jesus doesn't return until the end, Armageddon.
But, let's look on the bright side, if we become martyrs, we get to live and reign for 1,000 years while all our brothers and sisters sleep.
Thanks Friend. Us old geezers will sure do some damage, LOL.I've contemplated a bit about the 2nd coming, and one day as I was reading, it dawned on me that right after being taken up in the clouds that battle just might occur, and we will be part of it. Take the full armor of God with you buddy!!!!!! I would be honored to have you in my regiment if that is what will be!
I think it is pretty obvious that Jesus will return before the start of the 'Wrath of God' being "poured out" upon the earth ( '7 vials' ) -- since it is He Himself who "dishes it all out"...If it makes you feel better my friend, I don't know if I have what it takes either. If Peter can deny Christ, anyone can. I was hoping I could last through the trumpets but now it appears obvious Jesus doesn't return until the end, Armageddon.
But, let's look on the bright side, if we become martyrs, we get to live and reign for 1,000 years while all our brothers and sisters sleep.
Thanks Friend. Us old geezers will sure do some damage, LOL.
If that really be the case, we can't die anymore, if we are changed, or dead before the younguns get there!
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
No my dear friend. With utmost respect, not true!!! I'm not trying to boast but I do believe I have found it, the real answer that cannot be refuted. Jesus returns at or just after the 6th BOWL (not seal). This is the only time He comes. He doesn't come before and he doesn't come after. When He comes to earth again, He comes to stay. There is NO RAPTURE prior to when he comes at the 6th Bowl (not seal) and this rapture is a limited rapture.I think it is pretty obvious that Jesus will return before the start of the 'Wrath of God' being "poured out" upon the earth ( '7 vials' ) -- since it is He Himself who "dishes it all out"...
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Dear Friend,
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord (GOD) will by no means precede those who are asleep. (end of the age, end of the Millennium, end of the world)
16 For the Lord (GOD, not Jesus) Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. (again, the dead in Christ arise but He isn't bringing them, God is)
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord (GOD) in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord (GOD).
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Blessings to you dear friend in Christ. If we do go through the tribulation and are beheaded for our faith, we will receive more blessings than those that don't. I'm pretty sure we get other special treatment besides reigning with Christ over our enemies for 1,000 years - but still studying that aspect of this.