Pre Trib Rapture Moment 13: What are Post Tribbers afraid of?

[Hizikyah]

The pre-trib doctrine is in place to get people to accepth the anti-Messiah, they will be told "meeting Christ in the air is not literal, it's is a higher state of consciousness." The UN has been publishing magazines about thier comin "cosmic christ" for 40 years or something, called "Matreyu." (sp) You need to look into "PROJECT BLUE BEAM," they plan on using hologram technology to fake the second coming, and this is no cracker-jack attempt, it real and it's real serious. Many will fall for it if it happens. PS hologram technology is already in use, many examples but type in "will-i-am hologram" or "CNN first hologram"

The lie of the pre-trib is to get people to accept "the cosmic christ" by way of "project blue beam" these are possibly the biggest deception mankind has ever faced.

1 Corinthians 15:52-53, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be dchanged. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on
immortality."

 

[ChosenbyHim]

The lie of the pre-trib is to get people to accept "the cosmic christ" by way of "project blue beam" these are possibly the biggest deception mankind has ever faced.

1 Corinthians 15:52-53, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be dchanged. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on
immortality."

Hizikyah, why don't you simply study what the Holy Bible says about the Rapture. Study the Holy Bible and see what it teaches about the timing of the Rapture.

One of the proof texts for the Pretrib. Rapture is the following Scripture:

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1:1-14 (KJV)


Every true Born again Christian is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which means that we Christians cannot lose our salvation. Which also means that we are not going through the time of Jacob's trouble.


8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. - Revelation 14:8-12 (KJV)


In the time of Jacob's trouble, the Bible says If any man worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark, that same man is damned to an eternity in the lake of fire.

Therefore because true born again Christians cannot lose their salvation in this current dispensation (Dispensation of Grace), that means we will not be going through the time of Jacob's trouble. For a Christian to go through the time of Jacob's trouble would cause the whole Bible to contradict.

And that is just one proof text for the Pre-trib. Rapture. The Bible is in harmony with all of its doctrines.

If you will begin to study the Bible dispensationally, you will be able to see that the teaching of the pre-trib. Rapture is in the King James Bible. And just the fact that the Bible teaches eternal security of the true born again believer in this Dispensation of grace (aka Church Age), that already proves the fact that no Christian is going to be going through the time of Jacob's trouble.

 

[Huckleberry]

The Pretrib. Rapture is taught in the Scriptures.

And you cannot prove otherwise zone. Your problem is that you do not rightly divide the word of truth.

You cannot handle sound doctrine. So you attack it.

You post tribbers are looking for the antichrist.

While we King James Bible believers who believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture are looking for Jesus Christ. We Pre-trib. Rapture believers love the Lord's appearing and we are looking for Jesus Christ.


5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. - 2 Timothy 4:5-8 (King James Bible)

I respectfully disagree, brother.

There will be no "pre-trib" rapture.

Contrary to your statement, I'm not looking for "the antichrist" because there is no "the antichrist".
The word "antichrist" is in the Bible twice, I think, and neither time does the word "the" precede it.

The notion of a "pre-trib" rapture is absolutely not taught in Scripture.
Basic exegesis shows this.

These heretical doctrines were developed by John Nelson Darby in the 1800s
based on ideas put forth by a Jesuit named Francisco Ribera in the 1600s.

I will only debate this further if you are open to admitting you may be wrong.
Maybe you do not wish to debate it further, and are comfortable in your belief.
Either way, I wish you the best.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

I respectfully disagree, brother.

There will be no "pre-trib" rapture.

Contrary to your statement, I'm not looking for "the antichrist" because there is no "the antichrist".
The word "antichrist" is in the Bible twice, I think, and neither time does the word "the" precede it.

The notion of a "pre-trib" rapture is absolutely not taught in Scripture.
Basic exegesis shows this.

These heretical doctrines were developed by John Nelson Darby in the 1800s
based on ideas put forth by a Jesuit named Francisco Ribera in the 1600s.

I will only debate this further if you are open to admitting you may be wrong.
Maybe you do not wish to debate it further, and are comfortable in your belief.
Either way, I wish you the best.

Well sir, you, just like the rest of us, are at liberty to believe what you want to believe regarding this issue. But the teaching of the pre-trib. Rapture is indeed in the Scriptures.

The time of Jacob's trouble; I have said this many times but it bears repeating, is not for born again Christians. The time of Jacob's trouble is for unbelieving Israel. Read Jeremiah 30.

And no, the Rapture was not developed by John Nelson Darby.

The teaching of the pre-trib. Rapture goes all the way back to the second century. Here is proof of that in the video below:


[video=youtube;3VC9mlG9zXc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VC9mlG9zXc[/video]


Also, here is the website where you can see for yourself that the early church fathers taught a pre-trib. Rapture. And that they were Premillennial. The purpose of me sharing a link to this website, is just to prove that the teaching of the pre-trib. Rapture was not developed by Darby like a lot of people are claiming these days. I do not endorse the writings of the early church fathers, but again, just to make a point that the pre-trib. teaching of the rapture was around long before 1830.


The History of the Pre-trib Rapture

 

[ChosenbyHim]

One other thing sir, here is one other resource that you might want to look into. It is a good article defending the pre-trib. Rapture. Very precise and detailed.


The Pre-Tribulation Rapture | Doctrine

 

[GRA]

If you will begin to study the Bible dispensationally, ...

"But --- that is the problem..."

 

[Hizikyah]

QUOTTE FROM THAT LINK: "The trumpet that will sound at the Rapture of the church-age saints has nothing to do with the trumpets that will sound in Revelation as judgments on this world or the trumpets that sound in reference to Israel. The church is not a part of these other programs. Her “trump” is a different one. The church’s last trump is when she shall finally be congregated together to the Lord (1 Th. 4:17). Compare Numbers 10:7."

Decievers, they are making connections to things there are no connections to, taking advantage of peoles ignorace.

 

[Hizikyah]

which means that we Christians cannot lose our salvation

Romans 3:25, "Whom Yahweh set forth as a sacrifice of atonement by His own blood, through the faith, to declare His
righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of Yahweh."

Hebrews 10:26, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries."

Mattithyah 10:22, "And you will be hated above all men for My Name's sake; but he who endures to the end will be saved."

Mattithyah 24:12-13, "And because iniquity (Lawlessness)will abound, the love of the many will grow cold. But he who endures until the end, the same will be saved."

 

[PlainWord]

And for the true brethren out there. Watch and look for Jesus Christ. Because that is what the Bible admonishes us to do. And don't worry about having to go through the time of Jacob's trouble because no true born again Christian will go through the tribulation. The rapture comes first, then once the body of Christ is removed from off the earth, then that is when the man of sin will be revealed.

I love you Brother Chosen, I truly do. You have your belief and are sticking to it regardless of all the Biblical evidence against it. If there were two second returns of Christ wouldn't it be necessary when Jesus, Paul or John were discussing them to distinguish between them so as to not confuse us? Of course it would but none of them make any distinction. You want to know why? Because Jesus is returning once so there was no need for them to distinguish. Why would they teach something that isn't happening? They wouldn't. They only teach the truth.

I don't know why I haven't given up on your dear Brother Chosen, perhaps it is because you are sharpening me so that I can be a more effective teacher when the time comes. In any event, there are several issues with your conclusions from the below verses.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-10 KJV
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [9] Even him , whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, [10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-10 KJV
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [9] Even him , whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, [10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

It is not the Holy Spirit that is restraining the Beast/AC/Satan. It is Michael the archangel. Second, the restraining taking place isn't on earth, it is in heaven. So you have the location and the one doing the restraining wrong. Read Rev 12:

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,

8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.

9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

Please tell me brother Chosen that you can see here that it is during the Tribulation that Satan and his angels were cast to earth and it was in heaven where he was being restrained and it was Michael and his angels doing the restraining. Another blow for the Pre-Trib Rapture Theory/Lie!!!

I started a new post about this subject that sheds more light on this. We on earth are mere pawns in the greater battle of the heavens between Satan and God. This battle goes back to Adam and Eve and before. It is an epic battle and Satan is an adversary to not be taken lightly. The reason Satan will be able to fool the earth and unfortunately many who believe as you do is that He will be the first "Christ" on the scene. When Satan comes full of love and peace and doing great miracles he will simply play on the beliefs of those like you who expect Jesus to come first. He will appear where Jesus will appear, doing great signs in the heavens and on earth.

All I can say to you dear Brother Chosen is I hope and pray you aren't fooled.

 

[PlainWord]

"But --- that is the problem..."

Amen Brother GRA!!!

 

[PlainWord]

One other thing sir, here is one other resource that you might want to look into. It is a good article defending the pre-trib. Rapture. Very precise and detailed.


The Pre-Tribulation Rapture | Doctrine

I read the article and here are the problems with it that I see:

1. "Caught up" and taken to heaven are two completely different concepts. If we are to be "gathered" at the 7th trumpet and given glorified bodies and assembled in Jerusalem with Jesus it makes sense to be "caught up" in the air as opposed to being transported rapidly across the ground.

2. Why would the Lord bring down all the saints from heaven to be joined with those alive just to take them back to heaven? Why not just leave them there and bring those of us alive up to heaven? Seems foolish to do that just to return a few years later.

3. The "hope and comfort" which the author insists proves a rapture is so misplaced. The hope and comfort is that we will be resurrected and have eternal life and not sleep without hope. Go back to 1 Thes 4:13. This is the central theme of the whole passage!!!

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.

4. No timing is given in 1 Thes 4. Paul then writes 2 Thes 2 to clarify the timing because the Thessalonians were concerned that they missed the Lord's return. This is how you "Rightly Divide" the Word - by understanding the context, not by applying some man-made dispensational teaching to actually alter the clear reading of the Word. If you can't get this simple fact Brother Chosen, you will remain lost.

5. The Rapture does NOT come before the Day of the Lord's wrath. 1 Thes 5 isn't saying that!! It says we are to watch so that were are:

"not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief." If we are to be raptured, there would be no need to watch BECAUSE WE WON'T BE HERE!!

"For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

The above has NOTHING to do with Tribulation wrath. First Paul wrote this in AD 51 about 40 years before John was ever given his visions. Paul was long dead and gone so he could not be discussing the 7 Bowls of God's wrath which incidentally are poured out on the beast and his kingdom, not the whole earth. Paul was discussing specifically final judgment wrath.

6. 1 Cor 15 was written around AD 56. No TIMING of the rapture is given here. Why, because Paul already gave the timing 4 years earlier in 2 Thes. No distinction was made between this event and any other supposed returning - why? Because there is only one SECOND COMING.

7. The saying that the Church has a different trump from the ones in Revelation have no basis in scripture. The writer tells us:
"The church’s last trump is when she shall finally be congregated together to the Lord (1 Th. 4:17). Compare Numbers 10:7"

Yet 3 paragraphs earlier he tells us:

"1. The Rapture is a mystery that was not revealed in the Old Testament prophecies (1 Cor. 15:51)."

Why compare OT and NT trumpets if the OT has nothing to do with the Church in the NT? Revelation is however in the NT so those trumpets would be germane to the discussion.

8. The writer than goes on to say the following direct quote!!

The Time of the Rapture

NOTE TO TEACHERS: The following section can be omitted if there is a shortage of time to teach this course. Or you might want to hit the highlights of the following study by way of review and amplification of what has already been taught on the Rapture.

UNBELIEVABLE!!! It sure doesn't sound like he's very sure about the timing. He then goes on to summarize why he feels the timing is pre-trib. Basically he cites all the things Chosen and others cite. But none of them ever cite a verse that clearly states the timing is pre-Trib, or that there are two separate returns of Christ or that the Church is clearly in heaven. They take various passages, interpret them wrong, take them out of context then argue that when considered as a whole, there must be a rapture of the church BEFORE the Tribulation. Some of these people even have to gall to boast that they practice "sound doctrine."

This is a two part reply...

 

[PlainWord]

These are the reasons the Pre-Trib Rapturists cite as proof for an event that never happens from Chosen's article.

1. Church-age believers are promised salvation from wrath (1 Th. 1:9-10; 5:1-9; Rom. 5:9; Rev. 3:10).

Again, this wrath is final judgment wrath whereby believers have salvation. It is NOT, I repeat, NOT Tribulation wrath. Paul wrote this letter in AD 51, more than 40 years before Revelation was written. God's wrath in Revelation are the 7 bowls and they are specifically poured out on the Beast and his kingdom. Rev 16:1.

2. The Holy Spirit will be removed before the Tribulation (2 Th. 2:1-8).

This passage does not identify the Holy Spirit as the one to be removed or doing the restraining. This is another example of putting man's words into God's Word!! It is Michael doing the restraining, Rev 12:7

3. Church-age believers are promised mansions in heaven (John 14:1-3).

This does NOT prove a Pre-Trib Rapture. First for 2,000 years there will be saints who sleep, they will go to heaven. We then have a 1,000 year millennial kingdom. After that a new heaven on earth. Jesus could be talking about mansions for those who go to heaven before the Day of the Lord or After.

4. The Rapture of church-age saints is imminent (it could happen any time) whereas the Second Coming is said to be preceded by specific signs.

The biggest sign for the Second Coming would have been the Rapture, would it not? Funny the Rapture was not listed as a sign for the Second Coming. This "immanency" thinking was a result of 1 Thessalonians. The early church was concerned that they missed the Lord's return so Paul wrote 2nd Thessalonians to clear that point up. Obviously the Lord's return isn't that immanent since it has been 2,000 years. Maybe Jesus wanted us to think his return was immanent so we would always be walking right with the Lord. Or maybe since every day could be our last, we should always be right with the Lord. Or maybe simply, Jesus wanted us to always think he could come back at any time so that we would not be living in sin. Whatever His reason, clearly, the Lord's return has not been immanent.

5. The church is a mystery that is not revealed in the Old Testament (Eph. 3:1-11).

True, the OT did not refer to the church. But we are taught by Paul in Romans 11, that the church is to be grafted in with the Jews. Therefore the Time of Jacob's trouble applies to the church equally.

6. The book of Revelation shows that the church is not on earth during the Tribulation.

a. The church is not seen on earth in chapters 4-18.

Just because the church isn't mentioned in those chapters does mean it is in heaven! What an incredible leap. There are a lot of chapters in the NT where the church is not mentioned. The church was addressed earlier in Revelation. Then after the fullness of the Gentiles have come in, the church becomes part of the Olive Tree, thus part of Israel and together they are treated the same.

b. The witness for God in the earth during the Tribulation is Israel, not the church (Rev. 7).

The 144,000 are Jewish but they are believing Jews, thus would have been raptured if there was one. We know they are believing Jews from the start and not recent converts because they are called "virgins" which in this sense means they never believed in false Gods, religions or teachings. They follow the lamb wherever he goes. The absence of the church being mentioned doesn't imply a rapture from the earth.

c. The prayers of the saints in Revelation 8 are prayers for judgment. Only Israel prayed such prayers.

How thin is this? We are not shown the church in heaven before the tribulation. However, we see a ton of martyrs who come out of the Tribulation in heaven.

d. The scorpion-like creatures of Revelation 9 are given freedom to hurt all earth-dwellers except those Jews who were sealed by the angel of Revelation 7; if church-age believers were on earth, they would be subject to this horrible judgment.

First off this isn’t a judgment. This is the wrath of Satan which we are warned about. But he isn’t allowed to kill us here, just torment us. Wasn’t Paul tormented? How about the other disciples? Oh well, guess the church-age believers will suffer Tribulation. Duh. Why are we told to watch??? Why is Jesus telling us what to do in Mat 24 if we are to be gone? Look at Revelation 13:7. It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Clearly we see the Beast/Satan will be harming Christians and we know in a big way. That’s why so many are seen in heaven having “Come Out of The Great Tribulation.”

e. Revelation 10 identifies the events of Revelation 4-18 with those foretold by Old Testament prophets--the days of the Great Tribulation, the “Day of the Lord.” The church age was never in the view of these Old Testament prophecies; it was a mystery not yet revealed. The church has a different purpose and program than national Israel. It is Israel that is in view in Old Testament prophecy and in Revelation 4-18.

This is Replacement Theology which is NOT of GOD. The Gentiles were allowed in to make the Jews jealous. The Gentiles were told not to be haughty or they could be ripped out. Jesus teaches that Salvation is of the Jews. One Plan for One People – God’s People. Besides, nothing here suggests a pre-Trib Rapture.

f. The ministry of the two witnesses of Revelation 11 identifies them with national Israel and with Old Testament prophecies of the “Day of the Lord.”

This is so lame it’s hardly worth a response. Does the Lord have to mention the Church every time He mentions something about Israel? Of course not. The whole Bible is written with a Jewish slant the size of Titanic. When will the church realize that they are lucky to be included in the Jewish Messiah’s Salvation plan?

g. The devil persecutes Israel, not the church, during the Tribulation (Rev. 12)

Of course he does but he then goes after Her offspring and as I pointed out that Rev 13:7 has Satan making war with the saints and overcoming them.

The writer then goes on to state why it is important for our psyche to believe in this “LIE.” How about we believe in the Word as it is written instead!!!

Pre-Trib Doctrine is a lie and the work of Satan. Mid Tribbers are those who see Jesus coming back at the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Trump but don’t realize the Bowls have been poured by then. Post Tribbers see Jesus returning at the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Trump and the Day of the Lord lasts 1,000 years as we are told. This is what the clear reading of the Word teaches us.

Jesus taught POST TRIB
Paul taught POST BEAST
John taught POST TRIB

None of them taught two returns of Christ. None of them taught the church would be raptured to heaven.

The whole above exercise is a clear example of what Peter warned us about in 2 Peter 3:16.

“…speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.”

There is no false doctrine as big as the so-called Pre-Trib Rapture which has ZERO evidence in the Bible and exists only from much twisting of scriptures by man’s foolish desires to ignore the Word of God in an attempt to spare him the trials and tribulations that Jesus promised His followers.

Clearly man doesn't want to go through the Tribulation. Who wants to suffer pain and/or death. However, Jesus tells us repeatedly that we will suffer for our faith in him. We cannot as true Christians take Jesus' clear words about his plans then alter them using dispensationalism or whatever other method we have into a plan that we like better. That is what Pre-Tribbers do. And, they do so at their own peril and the peril of those who listen to them.

Pre-Trib is under attack and rightly so. The end is near, very near and Satan wants us to believe his lie. I am devoting my time exposing his lie.