Pre Trib Rapture Moment 13: What are Post Tribbers afraid of?
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Hey can anyone answer me what Isaiah ment by this scripture concerning the last days. as I understood, Isaiah seen a vision in the end times.
Isaiah 14:
[SUP]1[/SUP] For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
[SUP]2[/SUP] And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
[SUP]3[/SUP] And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
Isaiah 14:
[SUP]1[/SUP] For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
[SUP]2[/SUP] And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
[SUP]3[/SUP] And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
Plain, I am going to ask you a question. Now our sister in Christ already made this point a while back, but I want to present it again. Because you are refusing to acknowledge the clear dispensational distinctions which I showed you.
Now answer this question Plain, we know that according to Matthew 25:31-46, that at the Judgment of the Nations which takes place at the Second Advent of the Lord Jesus Christ. We know from reading that passage of Scripture that no unbeliever will be permitted into the Kingdom. Only the Saints which made it through the Tribulation. So if only the Saints are permitted into the Millennial Kingdom, then that must mean that the Rapture occurs before the time of Jacob's trouble. Because resurrected Saints won't be able to marry nor will they be able to have children (Matthew 22:30).
At the Rapture every Christian will receive a glorified body. And if every Christian receives their glorified body at the Rapture. Then again, that must mean that the Rapture takes place before the time of Jacob's trouble.
Now if it takes place after the Tribulation as you believe, then who populates The Millennial Kingdom???
Also, when exactly do you believe that the Rapture will happen? Aren't you Mid-Trib?
In the meantime, to further help you out Plain with this issue of the timing of the Rapture, I am going to share with you an excerpt from Max D. Younce's work: I'm So Glad You Asked!, Vol. 2.
Max D. Younce
The Rapture Is The Redemption of Our Body.
A partial Rapture is Satan's trickery to lead one to believe that you must suffer and/or have good works to complete God's salvation. One must remember that the completion of our salvation in the redemption of our bodies! Notice in Romans 8:23,
“...even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY.”
At the Rapture our salvation is completed. Those who have died, receive their resurrected bodies from the grave; while those that are alive have their bodies transformed as they go up to be with the Lord. (Philippians 3:20,21).
Those who propagate a partial Rapture have succumbed to Satan's subtlety. (Genesis 3:1 and 2 Corinthians 11:3,13-15). If Satan cannot convince you that good works are necessary for salvation; then, he will attempt, through his ministers, to convince you that those that are backslidden must go into the Tribulation. Some that hold this view have told me that, this is to have them suffer for their disobedience and give them a chance to redeem themselves. This, supposedly, shows God they are really Christians by now being faithful while being persecuted. Sounds good—except it contradicts God's Word!
This damnable philosophy denies the Judgment Seat of Christ for all Christians, as well as Christ's completing our salvation by His death and Resurrection. Therefore, they do not believe one is saved eternally; but, rather, must have good works in order to maintain their salvation. Very subtly, they accuse God of being a liar and unfaithful to His Word when He promised all believers they would “never perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16).
Those who propagate a partial Rapture have succumbed to Satan's subtlety. (Genesis 3:1 and 2 Corinthians 11:3,13-15). If Satan cannot convince you that good works are necessary for salvation; then, he will attempt, through his ministers, to convince you that those that are backslidden must go into the Tribulation. Some that hold this view have told me that, this is to have them suffer for their disobedience and give them a chance to redeem themselves. This, supposedly, shows God they are really Christians by now being faithful while being persecuted. Sounds good—except it contradicts God's Word!
This damnable philosophy denies the Judgment Seat of Christ for all Christians, as well as Christ's completing our salvation by His death and Resurrection. Therefore, they do not believe one is saved eternally; but, rather, must have good works in order to maintain their salvation. Very subtly, they accuse God of being a liar and unfaithful to His Word when He promised all believers they would “never perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16).
SOURCE: Dr. Max D. Younce, I'M SO GLAD YOU ASKED!, Volume 2, pg. 101-102; ISBN-13-978-0-9815225-8-6; Morris Publishing.
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Brother Chosen,
I think you are reading Matthew 24 wrong.
Matthew 24:35 and on is no longer discussing the Tribulation period. It is discussing the end of the age, which is the end of the world. These passages, Mat 24:35-51, which starts out with:
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
All deal with the final coming, Great White Throne stuff. One taken, one left refers to the unbeliever being taken, judged and cast into the Lake of Fire, then the righteous is gathered into the barn, see the Parable of the Wheat and Tares. "Like a thief in the night" and "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" are all end of world descriptions. They are not Trib passages. Like the days of Noah is end of the world, not Trib. The comparison to Days of Noah compare to total judgment of the world, which happens at the very end. The Trib is a partial judgment only. I was wrong earlier, the Day of the Lord is NOT during or before the Tribulation. It is at the very end of all ages. All of this ties with 2 Peter 3:10.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
See the thief in the night reference here? The Lord is not coming as a thief for the Trib. He comes in great glory and signs are given in the heavens.
These all ties with Luke 13:28, Mat 25:30, Mat 13:42-50 and other passages.
The Nations that are judged at the end of the Trib when the Lord sets up his 1,000 year reign are not all destroyed. Only those who came against Israel and God's people will be destroyed. Zech 13-14 describes the events.
As for who populates the millennium? Everyone who makes it through the Tribulation. You will have both believers and unbelievers. They will be ruled by Christ and the martyred. I am unclear if it will be all martyred throughout history or just the ones beheaded during the Trib.
See Rev 20:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Clearly you have nations remaining or how could Jesus rule them with a rod of iron? We know that the 1/3 remnant of Israel are believers. They certainly did not get "raptured." But then again my view of the Rapture and yours is very different. I don't think anyone gets taken alive up to heaven. I think they are gathered, those who are worthy.
I think you are reading Matthew 24 wrong.
Matthew 24:35 and on is no longer discussing the Tribulation period. It is discussing the end of the age, which is the end of the world. These passages, Mat 24:35-51, which starts out with:
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
All deal with the final coming, Great White Throne stuff. One taken, one left refers to the unbeliever being taken, judged and cast into the Lake of Fire, then the righteous is gathered into the barn, see the Parable of the Wheat and Tares. "Like a thief in the night" and "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" are all end of world descriptions. They are not Trib passages. Like the days of Noah is end of the world, not Trib. The comparison to Days of Noah compare to total judgment of the world, which happens at the very end. The Trib is a partial judgment only. I was wrong earlier, the Day of the Lord is NOT during or before the Tribulation. It is at the very end of all ages. All of this ties with 2 Peter 3:10.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
See the thief in the night reference here? The Lord is not coming as a thief for the Trib. He comes in great glory and signs are given in the heavens.
These all ties with Luke 13:28, Mat 25:30, Mat 13:42-50 and other passages.
The Nations that are judged at the end of the Trib when the Lord sets up his 1,000 year reign are not all destroyed. Only those who came against Israel and God's people will be destroyed. Zech 13-14 describes the events.
As for who populates the millennium? Everyone who makes it through the Tribulation. You will have both believers and unbelievers. They will be ruled by Christ and the martyred. I am unclear if it will be all martyred throughout history or just the ones beheaded during the Trib.
See Rev 20:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Clearly you have nations remaining or how could Jesus rule them with a rod of iron? We know that the 1/3 remnant of Israel are believers. They certainly did not get "raptured." But then again my view of the Rapture and yours is very different. I don't think anyone gets taken alive up to heaven. I think they are gathered, those who are worthy.
Brother Chosen,
It appears only the martyred (whether Trib or all is uncertain) get "Raptured." The rest of the dead rest until the 1,000 years are up. This is a major change of view for me but it all makes sense and agrees with John 6:40, 44, 54 and John 11:24. These passages all refer to the righteous being resurrected, "AT THE LAST DAY." I always saw that as the last day of the Tribulation but it seems clear that it is the LAST DAY of this old Earth which is confirmed by Rev 20:5.
I was sold once I saw this again from John 12. Now we have the sinner and the believer both coming back to life on the same last day. Nowhere are we taught that the sinner is resurrected at the Rapture. John 11:24 deals with Martha discussing Lazarus. Since Lazarus was a believer, he should be raised at the Rapture if the Rapture theory was correct. But he isn't, he is raised at the last day too.
John 4:
48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
So, the Rapture is a partial rapture of martyrs only and it happens during or at the end of the Trib. This is why we see the scene in heaven dealing with the martyrs at the 5th seal. They are anxious to return to earth to rule. This is why Paul talks so much about the saints Resting in Romans 2.
So brother Chosen, we were both wrong.
It appears only the martyred (whether Trib or all is uncertain) get "Raptured." The rest of the dead rest until the 1,000 years are up. This is a major change of view for me but it all makes sense and agrees with John 6:40, 44, 54 and John 11:24. These passages all refer to the righteous being resurrected, "AT THE LAST DAY." I always saw that as the last day of the Tribulation but it seems clear that it is the LAST DAY of this old Earth which is confirmed by Rev 20:5.
I was sold once I saw this again from John 12. Now we have the sinner and the believer both coming back to life on the same last day. Nowhere are we taught that the sinner is resurrected at the Rapture. John 11:24 deals with Martha discussing Lazarus. Since Lazarus was a believer, he should be raised at the Rapture if the Rapture theory was correct. But he isn't, he is raised at the last day too.
John 4:
48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
So, the Rapture is a partial rapture of martyrs only and it happens during or at the end of the Trib. This is why we see the scene in heaven dealing with the martyrs at the 5th seal. They are anxious to return to earth to rule. This is why Paul talks so much about the saints Resting in Romans 2.
So brother Chosen, we were both wrong.
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Matthew 25:31-46 is a reference to the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Judgment of the Nations. The Judgment of the Nations takes place 1000 years before the Great White Throne Judgment. The Judgment of the Nations is before the 1,000 year Reign of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Great White Throng is after the 1000 year Reign of the Lord Jesus Christ.
And according to Matthew 25:31-46, no unbelievers make it into the Millennial Kingdom. Only saved people.
So that puts the Rapture before the time of Jacob's trouble. Since at the Rapture, every Christian gets their glorifed bodies. And in our glorified bodies, we cannot procreate nor marry. Since we will be as the angels on Heaven ( Matt. 22:30).
Also plain, you did not answer my other question. Are you mid trib.?
My Apologizes, I thought you were talking about Mat 24 which is what I was discussing since we spend so much time on Mat 24.
Mat 25 deals with the Kingdom of heaven, not the Lord's 1000 year Millennial reign on earth. Mat 25 picks up where Mat 24:35 and on left off.
As for me, I no longer see a Rapture of the Church at all during the Tribulation. I had this HUGE revelation which has completely altered the way I view this. The ones being "raptured" are the martyred in Christ - for sure the Trib martyrs and perhaps all martyrs from the beginning of time. This view is the only one that seems to fit all the scriptures we have been discussing.
As for the scope of the Tribulation, I have to go back now and re-study it all from the prospective that the dead in Christ (except the martyrs) all remain dead until the end of the age - The Last Day. This is when the sinners all come back to life briefly and are judged. The old heaven and old earth pass away and the believers all enter the new heaven and new earth. For more detail as to how I arrived at that, please see my last post on the "Olivet Discourse"
Yes Chosen, The Two Witnesses get "Raptured" as do the rest of the Tribulation Martyrs. But NOT the Church. The church doesn't get raptured at all before, during or after the Tribulation!!! However, the living saints are "gathered" at the end of the Tribulation. I was wrong about when the Lord comes. It isn't at the 7th Trumpet. Jesus comes at the Battle of Armageddon. He "gathers" us for war - Those who are alive still.
I figured the big stuff out. Here is what really happens.
The world will go through a period of great upheaval (call it whatever you want) There will be a Beast and False Profit (Call one of them the Anti-Christ if you want). There will be judgments (seals, trumpets, bowls) but the Lord Jesus does not return until the Battle of Armageddon.
He comes back with the martyrs (who have glorified bodies) and "Gathers" those of us who remain alive to battle the Beast and his forces. Jesus defeats his enemies and establishes His millennial kingdom here on earth. Jesus only kills those who came upon HIS PEOPLE - ISRAEL. Those of us who are alive and remain stay on earth until we die. We then go to heaven and wait with the rest of the dead until the end of the ages. The martyred will live and reign with Jesus during the millennium. Those of us who are alive and are believers will be able to live in Jesus' physical kingdom that he establishes here on earth - in the Jerusalem vicinity. The unbelievers reside outside of Jesus' kingdom, assuming any unbelievers remain alive. We know there are disobedient people during the Millennium but I'm unsure if they are born into it or survived into it.
The dead (martyrs excepted of course) remain dead until the end of the age, which is the end of the old earth. They sleep for the 1,000 year millennial period.
There is no rapture of the church until the final day of this world. The big "Rapture" passage is really describing the end of the age and end of the world. I never made this distinction until now. But the word, "Lord" in the NT can mean Jesus or God where it almost always means God in the OT. If we take the famous rapture passage of 1 Thes 4 and substitute "God" for "Lord" and leave where it says God as God and Jesus as Jesus, it takes on a whole new meaning and totally agrees with 2 Peter 3:10.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him (GOD) those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord (GOD), that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord (GOD) will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord (GOD) Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord (GOD) in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord (GOD).
Jesus comes to rule for 1,000 years on earth. He stays. God comes down with all the dead in Christ at the end of the 1,000 reign to establish a new heaven and a new earth. This view fits perfectly with every other scripture I've looked at thus far.
I figured the big stuff out. Here is what really happens.
The world will go through a period of great upheaval (call it whatever you want) There will be a Beast and False Profit (Call one of them the Anti-Christ if you want). There will be judgments (seals, trumpets, bowls) but the Lord Jesus does not return until the Battle of Armageddon.
He comes back with the martyrs (who have glorified bodies) and "Gathers" those of us who remain alive to battle the Beast and his forces. Jesus defeats his enemies and establishes His millennial kingdom here on earth. Jesus only kills those who came upon HIS PEOPLE - ISRAEL. Those of us who are alive and remain stay on earth until we die. We then go to heaven and wait with the rest of the dead until the end of the ages. The martyred will live and reign with Jesus during the millennium. Those of us who are alive and are believers will be able to live in Jesus' physical kingdom that he establishes here on earth - in the Jerusalem vicinity. The unbelievers reside outside of Jesus' kingdom, assuming any unbelievers remain alive. We know there are disobedient people during the Millennium but I'm unsure if they are born into it or survived into it.
The dead (martyrs excepted of course) remain dead until the end of the age, which is the end of the old earth. They sleep for the 1,000 year millennial period.
There is no rapture of the church until the final day of this world. The big "Rapture" passage is really describing the end of the age and end of the world. I never made this distinction until now. But the word, "Lord" in the NT can mean Jesus or God where it almost always means God in the OT. If we take the famous rapture passage of 1 Thes 4 and substitute "God" for "Lord" and leave where it says God as God and Jesus as Jesus, it takes on a whole new meaning and totally agrees with 2 Peter 3:10.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him (GOD) those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord (GOD), that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord (GOD) will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord (GOD) Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord (GOD) in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord (GOD).
Jesus comes to rule for 1,000 years on earth. He stays. God comes down with all the dead in Christ at the end of the 1,000 reign to establish a new heaven and a new earth. This view fits perfectly with every other scripture I've looked at thus far.
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I think pre-tribers are afraid that they might have to endure the big one prophesied. If one thought that that might be a possibility, maybe there would be a very sincere prayer like I have been lead to offer over and over. Don't know. That's just-me. It kinda scares me some, because I know I don't have what it takes. I know God does though, so I have to put my trust in Him if in fact I have to go through it unto death. Just sayin'
If it makes you feel better my friend, I don't know if I have what it takes either. If Peter can deny Christ, anyone can. I was hoping I could last through the trumpets but now it appears obvious Jesus doesn't return until the end, Armageddon.
But, let's look on the bright side, if we become martyrs, we get to live and reign for 1,000 years while all our brothers and sisters sleep.
But, let's look on the bright side, if we become martyrs, we get to live and reign for 1,000 years while all our brothers and sisters sleep.
I've contemplated a bit about the 2nd coming, and one day as I was reading, it dawned on me that right after being taken up in the clouds that battle just might occur, and we will be part of it. Take the full armor of God with you buddy!!!!!! I would be honored to have you in my regiment if that is what will be!
If that really be the case, we can't die anymore, if we are changed, or dead before the younguns get there!
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Dear Friend,
I'm not sure if you have been following my recent posts. The passage you quoted refers to the end of the age - end of the World. This fact becomes clear when you back up a couple of verses and take everything in context. Read carefully. The key to understanding this passage is which of the Trinity is which. If you replace "LORD" with "GOD" you will see that it is GOD the father who is bringing the dead in Christ back to earth and the period of time is at the end of the age. See how the below then ties to 2 Peter 3:10.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord (GOD) will by no means precede those who are asleep. (end of the age, end of the Millennium, end of the world)
16 For the Lord (GOD, not Jesus) Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. (again, the dead in Christ arise but He isn't bringing them, God is)
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord (GOD) in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord (GOD).
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Here is 2 Peter 3:
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord (GOD) one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (The time we will be in heaven will seem like one day, then the 1,000 years are up, unless you are a martyr in which case you come with Jesus at the Battle of Armageddon.)
9 The Lord (GOD) is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord (GOD, not Jesus comes as the thief at the end of the millennial reign. Like the Days of Noah!!) will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;
Blessings to you dear friend in Christ. If we do go through the tribulation and are beheaded for our faith, we will receive more blessings than those that don't. I'm pretty sure we get other special treatment besides reigning with Christ over our enemies for 1,000 years - but still studying that aspect of this.
I'm not sure if you have been following my recent posts. The passage you quoted refers to the end of the age - end of the World. This fact becomes clear when you back up a couple of verses and take everything in context. Read carefully. The key to understanding this passage is which of the Trinity is which. If you replace "LORD" with "GOD" you will see that it is GOD the father who is bringing the dead in Christ back to earth and the period of time is at the end of the age. See how the below then ties to 2 Peter 3:10.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord (GOD) will by no means precede those who are asleep. (end of the age, end of the Millennium, end of the world)
16 For the Lord (GOD, not Jesus) Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. (again, the dead in Christ arise but He isn't bringing them, God is)
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord (GOD) in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord (GOD).
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Here is 2 Peter 3:
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord (GOD) one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (The time we will be in heaven will seem like one day, then the 1,000 years are up, unless you are a martyr in which case you come with Jesus at the Battle of Armageddon.)
9 The Lord (GOD) is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord (GOD, not Jesus comes as the thief at the end of the millennial reign. Like the Days of Noah!!) will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;
Blessings to you dear friend in Christ. If we do go through the tribulation and are beheaded for our faith, we will receive more blessings than those that don't. I'm pretty sure we get other special treatment besides reigning with Christ over our enemies for 1,000 years - but still studying that aspect of this.
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I think it is pretty obvious that Jesus will return before the start of the 'Wrath of God' being "poured out" upon the earth ( '7 vials' ) -- since it is He Himself who "dishes it all out"... 
When Jesus comes, he comes to stay. I believe I have concrete scriptural proof, at least I can't find a flaw now. Once you hear it, you will agree - providing you are willing to have eyes open and to see. No games or tricks. It is all in the scriptures and it is all in plain language. It is that solid.
I told you on another post that I found the key passage. This passage unlocks everything once you understand it. Not meaning to play games but this is BIG - HUGE!!! I gave you my personal email GRA. I am looking to collaborate with someone as I want to blow the cover off this thing. I'm not sure I want to share this with everyone. This truth will prove the teaching of virtually every church (certainly all the ones I know) 180 degrees wrong about the Rapture and most of their end times teaching. Once told, it will be nearly impossible for everyone, but the truly blind, not to see. It really is that big and that concrete.
Every single TV evangelist has it wrong, dead wrong. I'm still in shock about it myself. Can you put away your doubts GRA long enough to hear the rest of what was revealed? Email me if you can.
H
Jesus never said that the heavens and the earth will past away for ever, totally gone), but they will be burned up and refashioned to become the new heavens and the new earth for all eternity. The new Jerusalem will come down to the new earth and all the saved will live on it forever. You need to study a little deeper, you are missing a key truth here. The first resurrection is unto life ant it happens 1,000 yrs. before the 2nd res. unto death. All the saints, plus the martyrs, will rule on earth with Jesus for 1,000 yrs. Rev.20:4 is teaching us that the martyrs were not raised with the Church earlier in ch6:12. I think , the martyrs do not have to face the judgment seat of Christ. they are given a "better resurrection" Heb.11:35. At the end of the 70th wk. of Daniel , Jesus returns with His saints and saves the remnant of Israel left alive at Jesus' 2nd coming"to earth" and those Jews will go into the 1,000 yrs with their natural body and will marry The resurrected saints will not marry. May God bless us all. Hoffco
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[SUP]
[/SUP]I take verses 15 and 16 as one thought, as the dead in Christ will rise first, just like the resurrection at the crucifixion of Christ, but not the same event.
[SUP]
16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
This passage is connected with
1 Corinthians 15:51-58 (KJV)
[SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[SUP]52 [/SUP]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[SUP]53 [/SUP]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[SUP]54 [/SUP]So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[SUP]55 [/SUP]O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
[SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
[SUP]57 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]58 [/SUP]Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[SUP]
[/SUP]I take verses 15 and 16 as one thought, as the dead in Christ will rise first, just like the resurrection at the crucifixion of Christ, but not the same event.
[SUP]
16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
This passage is connected with
1 Corinthians 15:51-58 (KJV)
[SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[SUP]52 [/SUP]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[SUP]53 [/SUP]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[SUP]54 [/SUP]So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[SUP]55 [/SUP]O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
[SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
[SUP]57 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]58 [/SUP]Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
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