Pharisees "came to Him"
So what does it mean to "come to Him"?
None of the apostles chose Him. He chose them.
Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
- Thread starter ResidentAlien
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Pharisees "came to Him"
So what does it mean to "come to Him"?
None of the apostles chose Him. He chose them.
I admit this chart is interesting and I’ll dig into more later, but Jesus didn’t say there was 13 tribes unless that was intentional. Is there a tribe of Israel that won’t be judged?
12 disciples + Jesus = 13. There might be some significance in that.
The point is there are 14 named apostles and 14 named tribes in the Bible
You are mistaken to think Judas is always included when you see the number twelve.
Jesus is never mistaken.
John 18:9
This was to fulfill the word He had spoken: “I have not lost one of those You have given Me.”
John 6:39
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.
John 17:12
While I was with them, I protected and preserved them by Your name, the name You gave Me. Not
one of them has been lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
Perseverance in doing good, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but is a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.
*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved.
Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil.
The Bible says not everyone who performs signs and wonders is from God. It specifies that false shepherds will do so to deceive people, citing the antichrist.
Therefore Judas performing works is not proof he is from God.
Yes, it is. Prophecy is either true or false.
You can't have it both ways, a statement is either true or false.
Will Judas reign with Christ in the resurrection? No?
Then either Matthew 19:28 isn't talking about Judas or Christ is a false prophet.
Christ is not a false prophet.
Christ is not deceived.
Christ is not wrong.
Christ is not ignorant.
Christ is never in error.
The authority Judas was given was delegated to him through Jesus. So by what authority did Jesus perform signs and miracles? If you can answer that question then you can know by what authority Judas did as well.
Christ telling people they will receive eternal life isn’t a prophecy. The Bible also tells you how to have eternal life, correct? Is that a prophecy? It isn’t. It’s instructions on how you can get the thing you’re seeking.
The prophecy, once again, is that Judas was doomed. The disciples being told they will have eternal life is a conditional promise. If you do x thing you get x thing.
No I’m not mistaken. Jesus said 12 and I said 12. You’re desperate to find anything unrelated to the main point so you can claim I’m wrong about by referencing obscure and fringe theological ideas.
I’ve been in hundreds of debates my friend. I know all of the tricks people use.
That’s fortunate for them, at least the Pharisees were given some exposure to the gospel of Christ even though they rejected it, something Judas didn’t do. In one of the verses I quoted, Judas preached the gospel. Did you catch that?
Th plain reading of the verse about getting immortality through perseverance means immortality is works-based. Paul repeated this numerous times. If your exegesis creates a different point than what Paul plainly said, it’s obviously a red flag
that you’re twisting scripture to shoe horn OSAS into the Bible. That’s you eisegesis.
Your eisegesis continuously culminates in salvation by works, in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 5:1; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). Works-salvationists typically confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture, as demonstrated by you.Th plain reading of the verse about getting immortality through perseverance means immortality is works-based. Paul repeated this numerous times. If your exegesis creates a different point than what Paul plainly said, it’s obviously a red flag
Once again, ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10).
And ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).
"Perseverance in doing good" - descriptive of believers.
"Those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness" - descriptive of unbelievers.
Who gave Satan authority to persecute Job?
All things are through Christ, but this neither makes Him the author of evil nor does it make everyone who says 'lord, lord' and does wonders, of Him.
We know He will say to many such people 'I never knew you'
Mark that carefully. Not 'I used to know you then I didn't' - - but He never knew them. So I ask again, is He a liar when He says He never knew them or is His statement 100% accurate?
Therefore Judas doing signs and wonders is not proof he was ever a child of God.
Ahem.
Foretelling the future is the very definition.
Matthew 19:28
So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
that’s different than what you said at first. At first you’re saying Judas is not from God, when it’s actually that Judas was a disciple of Christ, a believer, was told he would have eternal life, and performed miracles that believers in Christ perform.
Now you’re searching Revelation for points about the devil giving his followers power during the end times tribulation mark of the beast period. You’re attempting to connect that to Judas, but that’s not accurate.
You simply have the cart in front of the horse.
Judas was given authority to go out and preach the gospel, cast out demons, and heal for the glory of God. The devil doesn’t do that. Big difference and you’d do well to finally learn this.
You’re saying Jesus sent Judas out on a devil’s errand? That sounds like what you’re saying.
Jesus taught that every house divided against itself cannot stand. You think Jesus sent a devil out to work for the kingdom of God? That’s ridiculous.
Judas didn’t become a devil until later in the story. In the beginning it wasn’t so.
and Judas was also doomed to destruction per prophecy then. So let’s say there are two prophecies of the 12. One is they will have eternal life and the other is that Judas was doomed to destruction. Quite simply, Judas lost his salvation. Or do you say he was OSAS?
Oh?
Have you never read:
Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
Did Jesus truly "never know" the ones He is talking about here?
Or is Jesus lying?
If Jesus is not a liar, and He never knew these that preached and cast out demons and healed, then through what power and authority did they do such things?