Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Runningman]

"lost" is not in the text.

The word is "perished"

View attachment 247676


Jesus did not guard the son of perdition.
Judas is not a child of God, but of Belial.


You want these things to say God may be unable and unfaithful to keep those who belong to Him, but that is not what they say.

Your position on Judas clearly is incorrect.
IMO you should take the position that honors Christ rather than the one that dishonors Him.

Versions use lost, some use perish, it’s open to interpretation by the translators. Doesn’t make a difference to me because the end is the same. Judas was lost, or perished because the end is the same.

Jesus plainly said he protected them and and kept them safe… however… Jesus doesn’t overrule the outcome of God’s prophetic purposes and that isn’t a scriptural problem.

Sheep can can go astray, become lost, and perish. That’s what happened to Judas.

Matthew 18
12What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them goes astray, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go out to search for the one that is lost? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he rejoices more over that one sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14In the same way, your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

 

[posthuman]

What has yet to be debunked is this

Romans 2:6-8
God “will repay each one according to his deeds.” To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.

no, that's actually been gone over several times by several people.

read the context. Romans is not just one chapter - chapters 1-5 are all one argument, carefully & methodically explaining that the law promised these things if it could be obeyed, but no one obeys it: therefore the only salvation is through faith, and this has always been God's plan from the beginning. the law brings the knowledge and conviction of sin.

the only reason you think this is something to be debunked is because you have lifted it out of its context.

 

[Runningman]

How many tribes of Israel are there?
You may think there are 12 but there are not; there are 13.
Joseph is one of Israel's 12 sons, but he is not a tribe. His children Ephraim and Manassah instead became tribes.

When we list sons, we leave them out and count 12.
When we list inheritance, we drop Joseph, add Ephraim and Manasseh, and leave out Levi.
In the 144,000 we drop Dan.

So 1 is replaced by 2 through the Spirit, and the number is 12 of the 13 depending on for what they are counted.

So it is also with the 12: you are mistaken.
Matthias followed Jesus, and so did Paul.

You said I am mistaken for saying there is 12 tribes of Israel. Please tell me, do you say Jesus is mistaken too?

Matthew 19
28Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, in the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[Runningman]

1. agree, and it is clearly demonstrated to you that neither Matthew 19 nor John 17 contradict this; moreover John 6:64 specifically states it.
2. equivalent to (1)
3. agree, salvation that can be lost is no salvation at all: it is merely a lying illusion of salvation. John 10:28 for just one of an hundred examples explicitly states this. either John 10:28 is true, or Jesus is a liar. choose.
4. not my claim at all but the logical conclusion of your misguided & false position on Matthew 19 & John 17, as i have patiently explained to you numerous times now.
5. not my claim at all but the logical conclusion of your misguided & false position on Matthew 19, as i have patiently explained to you numerous times now.

John 6:64
64However, there are some of you who do not believe.”(For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)

The ones who did not believe are different than the one who would betray him. The ones who did not believe are plural and the who would betray him is singular.

You can see so in the next verses where many of his disciples turned back and walked with him no longer, but Judas Iscariot stayed with Jesus.

John 6
65Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him.”

66From that time on many of His disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him.

Furthermore, Peter proves that Judas isn’t one of them who doesn’t believe:

John 6
68Simon Peter replied, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that You are the Holy One of God.”

Peter knew Judas well and so did Jesus. No one ever directly called Judas a non-believer. The miracles Judas performed with the authority granted to him prove he was a believer.

 

[Runningman]

2778 posts. and I still do not see OSAS debunked. Did you see where it was?

Please refer to post #1.

 

[posthuman]

Versions use lost, some use perish, it’s open to interpretation by the translators.

the word is not "lost"
the word is "perished"
John 17:12 is not a 'proof text' for you; it is in fact proof that your position is wrong, because He is called "son of perdition" -- not "child of God"
John 8:35 -- a son is always a son

Doesn’t make a difference to me

yes.
that's the problem.
that's why i have been saying we are not "same"

Jesus plainly said he protected them and and kept them safe… however… Jesus doesn’t overrule the outcome of God’s prophetic purposes and that isn’t a scriptural problem.

Jesus is God.
perhaps failing to confess this is the root of your many failures to understand what you are reading in scripture, and your having no qualm with holding positions that pretend things Jesus said not true...?

Sheep can can go astray, become lost, and perish.

if they have an Evil Shepherd, an hired hand.
but Christ is The Shepherd, The Good One - and of His sheep He does lose not even one. John 10:11, John 10:26-30, John 6:39

whenever you hold positions that directly contradict things Christ said,it ought to really, really bother you
but it doesn't bother you. not even a little bit.

if

"when" - Luke 15:5

He knows His sheep. John 10:27
He knows who are not His sheep. John 6:64

what now, your position is that Jesus is ignorant???


you are digging yourself a hole, friend. climb out!

 

[posthuman]

John 6:64
64However, there are some of you who do not believe.”(For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)

The ones who did not believe are different than the one who would betray him. The ones who did not believe are plural and the who would betray him is singular.

this Greek word does not translate directly to English. "betray" isn't the correct translation. God cannot be 'betrayed' - betray indicates misplaced trust, which is equivalently deception. Jesus, Who is God manifest in the flesh, is omniscient and it is impossible for Him to be deceived, to be mistaken, to be in error, to be wrong or to speak anything untrue.

the word is better read, "deliver" or "hand over"

clearly the one who would hand Him over is a particular member of the group "those who did not believe"

this passage indicates His omniscience. He knows their hearts -- yet here you are arguing that God was ignorant of Judas's heart.
how does your mind justify that being "okay" ??

The miracles Judas performed with the authority granted to him prove he was a believer.

with that statement you display one of the most dangerous kinds of Biblical & spiritual ignorance, friend.

false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.​

(Matthew 24:24)​

​

The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders ​

(2 Thessalonians 2:9)​

​

​

​

​

 

[Cameron143]

Somebody must be getting paid by the post.

 

[posthuman]

Now you’re saying Judas wasn’t a follower of Jesus?

if merely tailing Jesus around Judea counts as "you who have followed Me" then the Pharisees equally qualify.

get
a
grip
dude

 

[posthuman]

You said I am mistaken for saying there is 12 tribes of Israel. Please tell me, do you say Jesus is mistaken too?

Matthew 19
28Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, in the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

either you are mistaken about Judas being prophesied to reign with Christ, or God was mistaken.
yes i am pretty sure it is you, not God, who is in error.




btw i see that you didn't understand it, but did you actually read the post you replied to?
maybe just read the handy chart provided for you below and something will dawn on you

 

[posthuman]

Furthermore, Peter proves that Judas isn’t one of them who doesn’t believe:

John 6
68Simon Peter replied, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that You are the Holy One of God.”

lol would you like to see a list of how many times Peter was wrong, in scripture?
he's kinda famous for it, among Christians. proof-positive that even people who mostly don't have a clue, God can turn around and make something beautiful & powerful of.


friend, you make many very poor arguments.
please forgive my patient correction; it is for your benefit -- but if you refuse to listen, nothing will benefit you.

 

[SonLight_Wolf]

Where's the subtitle for this thread?
ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED DEBUNKED! ''Jesus was a liar! "

And 141 pages later people are entertaining the blasphemy by trying to change the blasphemers natural mind.

 

[Runningman]

the word is not "lost"
the word is "perished"
John 17:12 is not a 'proof text' for you; it is in fact proof that your position is wrong, because He is called "son of perdition" -- not "child of God"
John 8:35 -- a son is always a son

It’s proof you don't agree with the translators of the Greek language, but instead prefer a different translation. The word in the passage we are now discussing can mean perish or lost. Lost is a valid translation. Please refer to G622 where the usage in the NT is for losing or lost.

Here’s an example if you want to word study this:

Matthew 10
6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

yes.
that's the problem.
that's why i have been saying we are not "

same"

I agree.

Jesus is God.
perhaps failing to confess this is the root of your many failures to understand what you are reading in scripture, and your having no qualm with holding positions that pretend things Jesus said not true...?

which verse says that?

if they have an Evil Shepherd, an hired hand.
but Christ is The Shepherd, The Good One - and of His sheep He does lose not even one. John 10:11, John 10:26-30, John 6:39

Judas was given to Jesus by God, no one can come to Jesus unless it’s by the Father. Judas was lost, or perished if you prefer, regardless.

whenever you hold positions that directly contradict things Christ said,it ought to really, really bother you
but it doesn't bother you. not even a little bit.

It bothers me when I contradict Christ, that’s how I got to where I am now. I’m in alignment with Jesus’ teachings and I’m always striving to get closer to exact precision. I pray to God often to make me like Jesus. You and most of the people here see me as a foreigner or an outcast. They felt the same about Jesus when he went to his own and wasn’t received. Glory to God.

"

when" - Luke 15:5

He knows His sheep. John 10:27
He knows who are not His sheep. John 6:64

what now, your position is that Jesus is ignorant???

Matthew said if. The parable is about sinners who repent. Not all sinners repent so it’s definitely an if.

you are digging yourself a hole, friend. climb out!

I don’t think so. Im doing great. 😄

 

[Runningman]

this Greek word does not translate directly to English. "betray" isn't the correct translation. God cannot be 'betrayed' - betray indicates misplaced trust, which is equivalently deception. Jesus, Who is God manifest in the flesh, is omniscient and it is impossible for Him to be deceived, to be mistaken, to be in error, to be wrong or to speak anything untrue.

Oh come on man, now you’re saying the word betray doesn’t mean betray? Jesus was betrayed by Judas. On this point I think the whole of Christianity agrees.

with that statement you display one of the most dangerous kinds of Biblical & spiritual ignorance, friend.

false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.​

(Matthew 24:24)​

​

The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders ​

(2 Thessalonians 2:9)​

​

It’s not dangerous going by what the Bible says. I’ll double down on this with verses this time.

Judas was called, given authority to drive out demons and heal because those are signs that will accompany those who believe.

Matthew 10
1Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
2These are the names of the twelve apostles…
4Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

12They went out and preached that people should repent. 13They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them.


Mark 16
17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

 

[Runningman]

if merely tailing Jesus around Judea counts as "you who have followed Me" then the Pharisees equally qualify.

get
a
grip
dude

You think the 12 disciples were just literally walking after Jesus then? A disciple is more than just a follower in a literal walking sense, but also a student who practices the teachings of his or her teacher. The Pharisees don’t qualify as followers.

That’s hilarious you think a disciple is just someone who walks around following someone.

 

[Runningman]

either you are mistaken about Judas being prophesied to reign with Christ, or God was mistaken.
yes i am pretty sure it is you, not God, who is in error.

It isn’t either/or as if anyone is mistaken. The only way to maintain Biblical consistency is to keep Judas just as the Bible says: doomed to destruction.

Or are you trying to say Judas was OSAS?

btw i see that you didn't understand it, but did you actually read the post you replied to?
maybe just read the handy chart provided for you below and something will dawn on you

View attachment 247678

I admit this chart is interesting and I’ll dig into more later, but Jesus didn’t say there was 13 tribes unless that was intentional. Is there a tribe of Israel that won’t be judged?

12 disciples + Jesus = 13. There might be some significance in that.

 

[BreatheFocusBet]

methodically explaining that the law promised these things if it could be obeyed, but no one obeys it:

Paul does not begin to distinguish works of the law vs faith, for lack of a better way to put it, until around Romans 2:13
Before then he is indiscriminately speaking about

Romans 2:2-3
And we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, O man, pass judgment on others, yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?

or "each one" as he says in Romans 2:6.

He even goes out of the way to clarify that both those under the law and apart from the law who sin will

Romans 2:12
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Of course "Perish" could be interpret to fit osas I suppose. He does not seem to refer back to his statements in Romans 2:6-8 in a way that expressly changes the meaning of anything or clarify it in a way that fits osas, therefore you seem to be inductively applying osas meaning from later verses such as this

Romans 4:5
However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

But if we continue to Romans 6, the question arises why this (in bold)

Romans 2:8
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger

could not include this

Romans 6:18
Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?

which was a warning to people who were apparently justified (Romans 6:11)



further,

If this is true

John 5:28-29
Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

if some do indeed awaken to (in bold)

Daniel 12:2
And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

and if no one will go to the resurrection of life through the law, then there are some who indeed will awaken to everlasting life based on their deeds, again, (in bold)

Romans 2:12
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

And if some, why not others?

 

[know1]

If salvation is of grace, by definition it is not contingent upon any effort of the one on whom it is bestowed. If there is subsequent effort to maintain salvation, by definition it no longer grace because it requires something of the individual.
Subsequent requirements may evidence the lack of grace to begin with, but can in no way be required if the transaction was truly grace alone.

In 1st John 2:24, it is written, if that which you have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, you also shall continue in the Son and in the Father.
And in John 15:10, Jesus said, if you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, even as I have kept my father's commandments, and abide in his love.
If God has a requirement to abide in Christ and in his love, he also has a requirement to abide in his grace.
And how does one obtain this unmerited favor of God's grace? By faith and faith alone.
In Romans 11:20 through 22, Paul talks about how the Jews, being the natural branches, we're cut off from The Olive tree through unbelief, and we were grafted in through faith.
It goes on to say that if God didn't spare the natural branches because of their unbelief, he will not spare us through this same said unbelief.
Again, it shows a condition in order to remain or abide in either the vine or the tree, which is Christ.
So when the Bible talks about salvation being by grace it's not by works, it is referring to works of the flesh, not the work of believing in Christ and his finished work for your salvation.
If we are saved by grace through faith, then we are also healed by grace through faith, and delivered by grace through faith, and prayers answered by grace through faith.
Paul said, whatever is not done in faith, is sin, which brings damnation on yourself.
Again it is written, the only way, to please God, is by faith.
What did God tell Paul when he wanted deliverance from The Thorn in the flesh, which was the messenger of Satan?
He said, my grace is sufficient for you, for my strength is made perfect in weakness.
Was Paul in God's grace when he asked God to remove the devil for him? Absolutely not. Reason being, he used absolutely no faith to take care of the messenger.
No faith equals no Grace.
It should be understood then, that we can move in and out of the grace of God based on whether or not we are walking by faith in any given situation. For Grace is not for salvation alone but for every situation we go through.
And by the way, if we are not under grace, then we are, at that moment in Time, under the law. Which would constitute a work of the flesh.

 

[Cameron143]

In 1st John 2:24, it is written, if that which you have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, you also shall continue in the Son and in the Father.
And in John 15:10, Jesus said, if you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, even as I have kept my father's commandments, and abide in his love.
If God has a requirement to abide in Christ and in his love, he also has a requirement to abide in his grace.
And how does one obtain this unmerited favor of God's grace? By faith and faith alone.
In Romans 11:20 through 22, Paul talks about how the Jews, being the natural branches, we're cut off from The Olive tree through unbelief, and we were grafted in through faith.
It goes on to say that if God didn't spare the natural branches because of their unbelief, he will not spare us through this same said unbelief.
Again, it shows a condition in order to remain or abide in either the vine or the tree, which is Christ.
So when the Bible talks about salvation being by grace it's not by works, it is referring to works of the flesh, not the work of believing in Christ and his finished work for your salvation.
If we are saved by grace through faith, then we are also healed by grace through faith, and delivered by grace through faith, and prayers answered by grace through faith.
Paul said, whatever is not done in faith, is sin, which brings damnation on yourself.
Again it is written, the only way, to please God, is by faith.
What did God tell Paul when he wanted deliverance from The Thorn in the flesh, which was the messenger of Satan?
He said, my grace is sufficient for you, for my strength is made perfect in weakness.
Was Paul in God's grace when he asked God to remove the devil for him? Absolutely not. Reason being, he used absolutely no faith to take care of the messenger.
No faith equals no Grace.
It should be understood then, that we can move in and out of the grace of God based on whether or not we are walking by faith in any given situation. For Grace is not for salvation alone but for every situation we go through.
And by the way, if we are not under grace, then we are, at that moment in Time, under the law. Which would constitute a work of the flesh.

Thanks for sharing but I'm not sure you understood what I wrote. And I didn't really follow the totality of your arguments, especially concerning Paul. But I do appreciate that you took the time to write out of concern for me.

 

[posthuman]

which verse says that?

are you confirming that you don't believe Christ is God?