Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Everlasting-Grace]

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ed-osas-debunked.201128/page-131#post-4998205

The first two questions there don't seem to have gotten resolved (at least not in favor of osas), I apologize if I missed where they did.

the first question is easy.

He called people fools who attempted to be justified by the law. They taught a different gospel/

the second question is also easy.

Many people believe, and claim that they recieved the gospel. But if their true faith is in the law. then that is what they will always trust in.. as we already established, No one is justified by the law. Hence in reality as spoken, Christ became as no value to them..

none of these people were saved.. It does not disprove OSAS..

 

[mailmandan]

2778 posts. and I still do not see OSAS debunked. Did you see where it was?

No and I still cannot find one single verse in scripture which unequivocally teaches that a really 'saved" person really "lost their salvation."

 

[Cameron143]

No and I still cannot find one single verse in scripture which unequivocally teaches that a really 'saved" person really "lost their salvation."

And you won't. But...that isn't going to stop the debate.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I didn't mean for If It were possible and possible to give you the Impression that they mean the same thing but I meant for IF It were possible and It's Impossible to relate the same thing.

So to make a long short If It were possible means It's not possible.

 

[BreatheFocusBet]

the first question is easy.

He called people fools who attempted to be justified by the law. They taught a different gospel/

I certainly do not want to misrepresent what you mean. I'll rephrase, is it true that Paul thought these people
v
v
v

Galatians 3:26
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 4:6-7
And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, you are also an heir through God.

Galatians 3:1-2
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?
Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh? Have you suffered so much for nothing, if it really was for nothing? Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the law, or because you hear and believe?

Did not have the Holy Spirit, were not sons of God, and had no faith in Christ Jesus?
Yes or no.

 

[ResidentAlien]

No and I still cannot find one single verse in scripture which unequivocally teaches that a really 'saved" person really "lost their salvation."

You can't lose salvation, you can only reject your Savior. The Christian walk is a walk with Christ to the end; give up and walk away from Him you have no savior, no salvation. How are you going to be saved then? It's not over till it's over. If you can't see that in the scriptures I don't know what to tell ya.

 

[posthuman]

John 17
12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

"lost" is not in the text.

The word is "perished"




Jesus did not guard the son of perdition.
Judas is not a child of God, but of Belial.


You want these things to say God may be unable and unfaithful to keep those who belong to Him, but that is not what they say.

Your position on Judas clearly is incorrect.
IMO you should take the position that honors Christ rather than the one that dishonors Him.

 

[Magenta]

No and I still cannot find one single verse in scripture which unequivocally teaches that a really 'saved" person really "lost their salvation."

Perhaps they really think they are SOMEone since NOone can snatch us out of Christ's hand...

 

[BreatheFocusBet]

What has yet to be debunked is this

Romans 2:6-8
God “will repay each one according to his deeds.” To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.

 

[Magenta]

1 Corinthians 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and
someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay
any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds
on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will
be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire,
and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives,
the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet
will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

 

[Cameron143]

One thing I will never understand is this:

If Jesus came to bring eternal life to those who believe...John 3:16, and...
Eternal life is knowing God...John 17:3, and...
We can know we have eternal life...1 John 5:13, and...
If eternal means forever without end,...

How is it possible to be both eternal and also able to end?

I'm open to any explanation. I've just never heard one that satisfied my soul.

 

[posthuman]

there’s no other group of 12 who followed Jesus

How many tribes of Israel are there?
You may think there are 12 but there are not; there are 13.

Joseph is one of Israel's 12 sons, but he is not a tribe. His children Ephraim and Manassah instead became tribes.

When we list sons, we leave them out and count 12.
When we list inheritance, we drop Joseph, add Ephraim and Manasseh, and leave out Levi.
In the 144,000 we drop Dan.

So 1 is replaced by 2 through the Spirit, and the number is 12 of the 13 depending on for what they are counted.

So it is also with the 12: you are mistaken.
Matthias followed Jesus, and so did Paul.

 

[posthuman]

One thing I will never understand is this:

If Jesus came to bring eternal life to those who believe...John 3:16, and...
Eternal life is knowing God...John 17:3, and...
We can know we have eternal life...1 John 5:13, and...
If eternal means forever without end,...

How is it possible to be both eternal and also able to end?

I'm open to any explanation. I've just never heard one that satisfied my soul.

If it isn't eternal, it isn't eternal.
He didn't die to give us 'temporary illusion of maybe life maybe not actually life'

It's the same problem with putting an expiration date on everlasting gobstoppers!
If they expire, they ain't everlasting!

 

[Cameron143]

How many tribes of Israel are there?
You may think there are 12 but there are not; there are 13.

Joseph is one of Israel's 12 sons, but he is not a tribe. His children Ephraim and Manassah instead became tribes.

When we list sons, we leave them out and count 12.
When we list inheritance, we drop Joseph, add Ephraim and Manasseh, and leave out Levi.
In the 144,000 we drop Dan.

So 1 is replaced by 2 through the Spirit, and the number is 12 of the 13 depending on for what they are counted.

So it is with the 12: you are mistaken.
Matthias followed Jesus, and so did Paul.

Good catch there. Most people miss that.

 

[Cameron143]

If it isn't eternal, it isn't eternal.
He didn't die to give us 'temporary illusion of maybe life maybe not actually life'

It's the same problem with putting an expiration date on everlasting gobstoppers!
If they expire, they ain't everlasting!

Please...anything but gobstoppers!

 

[BreatheFocusBet]

ternal and also able to end?

I'm open to any explanation. I've just never heard one that satisfied my soul.

Perhaps it is implicit that God will only honor those who Honor Him?

1 Samuel 2:30
Therefore, the LORD, the God of Israel, declares: ‘I did indeed say that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever. But now the LORD declares: Far be it from Me! For I will honor those who honor Me, but those who despise Me will be disdained.



Perhaps Jesus Christ is Eternal life and it is being literally in Jesus that is what's meant by "have eternal life"

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true—in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.



Like a vine is sustained literally in an olive shoot, thus you can choose to "have Eternal Life" or not remain in Him.

John 15:1-6
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the keeper of the vineyard. He cuts off every branch in Me that bears no fruit, and every branch that does bear fruit, He prunes to make it even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me.

I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned.

 

[posthuman]

Your claims:

1. Judas was never saved
2. Judas was always lost
3. Salvation can’t be lost
4. Jesus is a liar if Judas lost salvation
5. Jesus is a false prophet of Judas didn’t get eternal life

1. agree, and it is clearly demonstrated to you that neither Matthew 19 nor John 17 contradict this; moreover John 6:64 specifically states it.
2. equivalent to (1)
3. agree, salvation that can be lost is no salvation at all: it is merely a lying illusion of salvation. John 10:28 for just one of an hundred examples explicitly states this. either John 10:28 is true, or Jesus is a liar. choose.
4. not my claim at all but the logical conclusion of your misguided & false position on Matthew 19 & John 17, as i have patiently explained to you numerous times now.
5. not my claim at all but the logical conclusion of your misguided & false position on Matthew 19, as i have patiently explained to you numerous times now.

 

[posthuman]

the first question is easy.

He called people fools who attempted to be justified by the law. They taught a different gospel/

the second question is also easy.

Many people believe, and claim that they recieved the gospel. But if their true faith is in the law. then that is what they will always trust in.. as we already established, No one is justified by the law. Hence in reality as spoken, Christ became as no value to them..

none of these people were saved.. It does not disprove OSAS..

yes -- key phrase is in Galatians 3:2 "if it really was for nothing?"

 

[Runningman]

There is nothing conditional about Matthew 19:28

Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Either Jesus was wrong in what He said, or He does not mean Judas when He says "ye which have followed Me"

It is really very simple.
You choose to believe Jesus spoke falsely, and you seem to have no problem believing He did.
I do not.

Now you’re saying Judas wasn’t a follower of Jesus? I’m sorry, I’m trying to work with you, but that’s rather far fetched. Judas was called a disciple, along with the other 11, and the main definition of the word disciple is follower.

So since we’ve already proven Judas was a follower of Jesus, when Jesus said, “ye which have followed me…” that would be a reference to his disciples, Judas Iscariot included. This is obvious and you shouldn’t have missed it, but in your haste to search for literally anything that validates your OSAS pet doctrine, you’ve overlooked objective facts.

 

[posthuman]

And you won't. But...that isn't going to stop the debate.

why do we even have such a debate?

- are people afraid that if we find out salvation is free, someone will steal it?
- do people really want it to be about themselves and their efforts?
- is this thing Christ did for us simply just too good to believe?

so weird

i suspect what often happens ((apart from obviously some people just being ungrounded/unlearned & persuaded by false teachers)), is that people meet someone whitewashed on the outside and one day discover they are a tomb on the inside, but, still being deceived by the whitewash, imagine they once had something that they never in fact had.