Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
lol my point was the Calvin debate is heated right now. It’s so bad many have gotten Banned
The issue is people on both sides stopped Learning how to discuss. And it’s all out war. That was My point.
Eleven is probably egging you on. I can not see what she posts but I see you answered her
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Eleventh hour, if you sincerely are interested what my answer to your last question is you can pm me if you want.
E
EleventhHour
Guest
Please keep on ignore and do not try to read my mind.... I am not egging him on I am trying understand how he can divorce two concepts that are intertwined.
No one is forcing you to participate and I am sure @OIC1965 as a grown man can let me know if he does not want to discuss it with me.
I would love to discuss it, but not here.
Two words “According to”. Put those two words between the two concepts.
Hope you have a blessed day.
E
EleventhHour
Guest
I can PM you but I do not think this is anything contentious ... all I am trying to understand is how you can divorce "God chooses" from irresistible grace.
Perhaps you have not thought it through ... which is fair enough.. in my mind I cannot see a way around it.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
E
EleventhHour
Guest
I have no pressing need to discuss it ... I just wanted to know your thoughts on how it can work.
I hope your thread it approved.
She’s not egging him on whatsoever and I’m not blindly defending her because we’re friends. Her conversation with OIC is one of the utmost mutual respect.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I guess things can change. Although he answered her question in his posts so not sure why she even asked which is why I questioned her motive. Just going off past experience
I have to disagree with you there. The apostles were chosen for salvation.........just like every other Christian. Judas was never saved and never was going to be saved, because prophecy had to be fulfilled.Well we can leave TULIP aside but all parts of it work together are outside of scripture.
So how does God choose salvation for some without irresistible grace
Choosing the apostles was not Gods choice to salvation since Judas was not saved and therefore not about salvation.
John 17:12
While I was with them, I protected and preserved them by Your name, the name You gave Me. Not one of them has been lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
Evidently God is doing the choosing, and at least in some cases the non-choosing.
E
EleventhHour
Guest
I do not believe God predestines........ as in God selects group X and not group Y,
however, yes that is what I am I saying....... if one does believe He selects group X and not group Y then yes it does not necessitate irresistible grace.
Yet we have plenty of evidence from scripture that grace can be resisted.
No, not according to John 17:12, and of course Many OT prophecies. And John 6:70.
Unfortunately when you look at all of the relevant scriptures together as a package,
it appears as if Judas was chosen.......chosen to be the betrayer.
I am not pushing some kind of doctrine here. Just thinking out loud really.
Jesus answered them, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” He was speaking about Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. For although Judas was one of the Twelve, he was later to betray Jesus. John 6:70-71
E
EleventhHour
Guest
You can think out loud if you would like.. I am not offended.
But I feel this casts Jesus in very bad light if Judas did not choice in the matter..... as I told you before, in this view you present, Jesus does not make a good faith offer to Judas ... and also Jesus would be quite deceptive.... by inviting Judas to be an apostle, giving him the same responsibilities, yet setting him up for failure?
Jesus invites Judas to join in good faith yet knowing that Judas will fail.
Ok, now I can jump back in, because we are talking about something other than election and predestination. This falls under the category of Sovereignty.
Judas chose exactly what his nature predisposed him to choose. God did not force him to choose, he chose voluntarily to betray Christ. Yet God knew that he would, and Judas was chosen for that purpose. He was chosen to fulfill the prophecy “ my friend that eats bread with me will lift up the heel against me.
Just like God raised up Pharoah to power in order to demonstrate His power on the gods of Egypt, just like He allowed, (not caused) Joseph’s brothers to act on their evil intentions to sell Joseph into slavery, in order to fulfill His OWN PURPOSE of preserving and saving Israel from famine, just as Assyria was a rod of judgement in God’s Hand, yet even though they were an instrument in God’s hand, they were punished for their evil intentions, and just like the Romans and the religious Jews committed a great evil in crucifying Christ, YET they did what God had before determined and decreed would take place
In ALL of these instances they acted VOLUNTARILY and FREELY, yet in all these instances, they were doing exactly what God intended them to do!! And in all these instances, even though they were instruments in God’s Hand, they were still punished for their evil intentions.
Oh the depths and heights of the wisdom and power of God...
Undeniable. All of it.