Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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lol my point was the Calvin debate is heated right now. It’s so bad many have gotten Banned
The issue is people on both sides stopped Learning how to discuss. And it’s all out war. That was My point.
Eleven is probably egging you on. I can not see what she posts but I see you answered her
The issue is people on both sides stopped Learning how to discuss. And it’s all out war. That was My point.
Eleven is probably egging you on. I can not see what she posts but I see you answered her
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Please keep on ignore and do not try to read my mind.... I am not egging him on I am trying understand how he can divorce two concepts that are intertwined.
No one is forcing you to participate and I am sure @OIC1965 as a grown man can let me know if he does not want to discuss it with me.
No one is forcing you to participate and I am sure @OIC1965 as a grown man can let me know if he does not want to discuss it with me.
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Well we can leave TULIP aside but all parts of it work together are outside of scripture.
So how does God choose salvation for some without irresistible grace
Choosing the apostles was not Gods choice to salvation since Judas was not saved and therefore not about salvation.
So how does God choose salvation for some without irresistible grace
Choosing the apostles was not Gods choice to salvation since Judas was not saved and therefore not about salvation.
John 17:12
While I was with them, I protected and preserved them by Your name, the name You gave Me. Not one of them has been lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
Evidently God is doing the choosing, and at least in some cases the non-choosing.
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I do not believe God predestines........ as in God selects group X and not group Y,
however, yes that is what I am I saying....... if one does believe He selects group X and not group Y then yes it does not necessitate irresistible grace.
Yet we have plenty of evidence from scripture that grace can be resisted.
however, yes that is what I am I saying....... if one does believe He selects group X and not group Y then yes it does not necessitate irresistible grace.
Yet we have plenty of evidence from scripture that grace can be resisted.
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No, not according to John 17:12, and of course Many OT prophecies. And John 6:70.
Unfortunately when you look at all of the relevant scriptures together as a package,
it appears as if Judas was chosen.......chosen to be the betrayer.
I am not pushing some kind of doctrine here. Just thinking out loud really.
Unfortunately when you look at all of the relevant scriptures together as a package,
it appears as if Judas was chosen.......chosen to be the betrayer.
I am not pushing some kind of doctrine here. Just thinking out loud really.
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You can think out loud if you would like.. I am not offended.
But I feel this casts Jesus in very bad light if Judas did not choice in the matter..... as I told you before, in this view you present, Jesus does not make a good faith offer to Judas ... and also Jesus would be quite deceptive.... by inviting Judas to be an apostle, giving him the same responsibilities, yet setting him up for failure?
Jesus invites Judas to join in good faith yet knowing that Judas will fail.
But I feel this casts Jesus in very bad light if Judas did not choice in the matter..... as I told you before, in this view you present, Jesus does not make a good faith offer to Judas ... and also Jesus would be quite deceptive.... by inviting Judas to be an apostle, giving him the same responsibilities, yet setting him up for failure?
Jesus invites Judas to join in good faith yet knowing that Judas will fail.
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Ok, now I can jump back in, because we are talking about something other than election and predestination. This falls under the category of Sovereignty.
Judas chose exactly what his nature predisposed him to choose. God did not force him to choose, he chose voluntarily to betray Christ. Yet God knew that he would, and Judas was chosen for that purpose. He was chosen to fulfill the prophecy “ my friend that eats bread with me will lift up the heel against me.
Just like God raised up Pharoah to power in order to demonstrate His power on the gods of Egypt, just like He allowed, (not caused) Joseph’s brothers to act on their evil intentions to sell Joseph into slavery, in order to fulfill His OWN PURPOSE of preserving and saving Israel from famine, just as Assyria was a rod of judgement in God’s Hand, yet even though they were an instrument in God’s hand, they were punished for their evil intentions, and just like the Romans and the religious Jews committed a great evil in crucifying Christ, YET they did what God had before determined and decreed would take place
In ALL of these instances they acted VOLUNTARILY and FREELY, yet in all these instances, they were doing exactly what God intended them to do!! And in all these instances, even though they were instruments in God’s Hand, they were still punished for their evil intentions.
Oh the depths and heights of the wisdom and power of God...
Undeniable. All of it.
Judas chose exactly what his nature predisposed him to choose. God did not force him to choose, he chose voluntarily to betray Christ. Yet God knew that he would, and Judas was chosen for that purpose. He was chosen to fulfill the prophecy “ my friend that eats bread with me will lift up the heel against me.
Just like God raised up Pharoah to power in order to demonstrate His power on the gods of Egypt, just like He allowed, (not caused) Joseph’s brothers to act on their evil intentions to sell Joseph into slavery, in order to fulfill His OWN PURPOSE of preserving and saving Israel from famine, just as Assyria was a rod of judgement in God’s Hand, yet even though they were an instrument in God’s hand, they were punished for their evil intentions, and just like the Romans and the religious Jews committed a great evil in crucifying Christ, YET they did what God had before determined and decreed would take place
In ALL of these instances they acted VOLUNTARILY and FREELY, yet in all these instances, they were doing exactly what God intended them to do!! And in all these instances, even though they were instruments in God’s Hand, they were still punished for their evil intentions.
Oh the depths and heights of the wisdom and power of God...
Undeniable. All of it.