Not By Works

[EleventhHour]

There is no scriptural support for a temporal decision that cannot be affected by subsequent temporal decisions. Names written in can be blotted out. Names not there can be written in.

One thing I must say for the NOSAS crowd is they sure like to make blanket generalized statements pulling ideas out of context is pretty much a staple.

I know every tactic .. you are not persuadable so I am not sure it is worth my time and effort.

 

[DorothyMae]

That is scripture .. do you not recognize it?

I do. Do you?

 

[EleventhHour]

You can. You believe all future sins are forgive I assume or at least sins don’t matter much so you can let er rip. I can’t. I try to avoid sin so I say “mistaken” which is simply human error and treating others kindly.

Oh so you are one of those... future sins not forgiven.. you have an "insurmountable feat" in front of you staying sinless that is.
Good luck with that.

 

[DorothyMae]

There is no solid Scriptural proof that Judas wasn't like this off the start though.

What? There plenty of scriptures that None of them were like they ended up being. All of them changed over time.

This is something we might speculate on, but we read opposite things like, "Jesus knew from the beginning who would not believe", "not clean", "devil".

Clean is not a permanent state by definition. Jesus even talks about BECOMING unclean or being cleansed. It is a once your status is determined you’re permanently clean or unclean.

The Scripture is overwhelming that speaks about Judas like he was never saved, and does not lead to conclusion at all that he was - at least for me.

If it’s overwhelming please give direct references that show Judas was never saved and Thaddeus was. If it’s overwhelming it can’t be hard. Now I know there are. one but that is the point. There are no scriptures describing Judas as u saved and the others saved.

The main case against Judas being saved but then lost, are the two Scriptures about Jesus "losing none". If the "son of perdition" was indeed given to Jesus, then this breaks the other Scripture in John, where it states that Jesus "lost none who are given" (like I cited before). Jesus either loses none, or loses some. Unless a solid explanation is provided to reconcile these two Scriptures and make them not contradict, I will stay at my current position.

The time period in all of these is assumed by you to be in eternity past it seems. Or am I mistaken? The scripture actually describes Jesus praying and choosing his disciple, not being given before. Also says they chose to follow Him. Some he asked to follow him and they refused. Judas chose to follow as was as they were until he chose evil at a point in time which OSAS believers can not admit. No choices in time can be considered, right? No changing the mind and turning back, right?

It's okay to have different positions on this, we still follow Jesus. I am super grateful if the other side at least sees where I'm coming from. Have a blessed night, I'm about to retire to sleep.

I am pretty sure I see your side. It would be better not to insist that the scriptures for your position are overwhelming though.

 

[DorothyMae]

Oh so you are one of those... future sins not forgiven.. you have an "insurmountable feat" in front of you staying sinless that is.
Good luck with that.

I ask forgiveness as necessary.

 

[Lafftur]

Judas surrendered his life and will to Jesus leaving everything to follow him. He later took it back. This is putting your hand to the plow and looking back. The condition of such a person is worse than an unbeliever.

No, I disagree. Judas was never surrendered to Christ. Judas was always in it for himself. Judas never believed.

But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John 6:64 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:64&version=KJV

Jesus had to fulfill ALL the Law and The Prophets. The Prophets had written in the Psalms of Jesus betrayed by Judas.

Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
Psalm 41:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Psalm 41:9&version=KJV

Ironically, Peter denied Jesus 3 times yet, Peter did believe and had been given understanding by the Father that Jesus was The Christ.

Peter believed and never stopped loving Jesus, Peter wept bitterly over his denial of Christ and after Jesus rose from the dead, an angel told the women to especially tell Peter to go to Galilee to meet with Jesus.


But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.
Mark 16:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Mark 16:7&version=KJV

 

[EleventhHour]

What? There plenty of scriptures that None of them were like they ended up being. All of them changed over time.
Clean is not a permanent state by definition. Jesus even talks about BECOMING unclean or being cleansed. It is a once your status is determined you’re permanently clean or unclean.
If it’s overwhelming please give direct references that show Judas was never saved and Thaddeus was. If it’s overwhelming it can’t be hard. Now I know there are. one but that is the point. There are no scriptures describing Judas as u saved and the others saved.
The time period in all of these is assumed by you to be in eternity past it seems. Or am I mistaken? The scripture actually describes Jesus praying and choosing his disciple, not being given before. Also says they chose to follow Him. Some he asked to follow him and they refused. Judas chose to follow as was as they were until he chose evil at a point in time which OSAS believers can not admit. No choices in time can be considered, right? No changing the mind and turning back, right?
I am pretty sure I see your side. It would be better not to insist that the scriptures for your position are overwhelming though.

Choosing to follow Jesus is not salvation.

 

[Lafftur]

It is possible to start well, yet not finish well.

Now, @oyster67 - You and I both know Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, He will complete what He has started.

 

[Lafftur]

I didn’t say that. I asked you for a scripture to back up your claim that Judas didn’t acknowledge Jesus as Lord which you think is why he was lost as opposed to the others who, in your view did. You assume Judas didn’t and the others did because you want that to be the reason Judas is lost, not because a single scripture backs you up.

Judas was lost because he changed his mind about
following Jesus. This is the point that OSAS cannot admit happens. It is the simplest and most common reason people fall away and Jesus gave the reasons.

Didn’t Peter change his mind 3 times.....yet, Peter was never lost.

 

[DorothyMae]

Didn’t Peter change his mind 3 times.....yet, Peter was never lost.

Peter fell away from the faith. Jesus said he prayed extra hard for Peter, just mentioned doing so for Peter. If Peter has not repented he would have been lost. We must keep in mind decisions in time change the course of our lives and destinies.

Peter is not a good example for your position because Jesus says he would fall away, something you don’t believe can happen at all anywhere in time.

 

[dcontroversal]

So you say nasty things to me instead of providing scripture. But it’s OK because OSAS has only a handful of sentences pulled out to piece together a theology that negates all the warnings. I know them all as there aren’t many so you are pretty much at a loss.

Some of your side even described being concerned for their salvation and instead of taking the warnings seriously got their relief in feeling God promising them what they want personally in their heart in violation of what they had read. I know believers who earnestly prayed God would strengthen them instead of relying on theology.

Don't even address me....you are not of God and your incessant mouthing, rejection of thr truth and constant attempt to smear osas with a total lack of honesty toward the word of God is getting old. Seriously.....do not address me!

 

[DorothyMae]

Now, @oyster67 - You and I both know Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, He will complete what He has started.

So you are passive and bear no responsibility?

 

[DorothyMae]

Don't even address me....you are not of God and your incessant mouthing, rejection of thr truth and constant attempt to smear osas with a total lack of honesty toward the word of God is getting old. Seriously.....do not address me!

You have no authority to tell me what to do. Stop writing me if you want that response from me.

 

[DorothyMae]

Choosing to follow Jesus is not salvation.

What is salvation in your book?

I can provide scriptures to tell
you what Jesus thought of those who’d left everything to follow Him.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes you did: Did Thaddeus? Did James? Where is this recorded?



Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Not because I want it that way but because that is what Jesus explicitly said.

It seems you want it to be that way for some reason as there is no Scripture to even remotely suggest that what you claim is true (Judas was saved but later changed his mind)... whereas I have given Scriptural answers to your questions, even if you reject them. That is on you.

I honestly cannot even engage her anymore.....there is not an ounce of contextual honesty in anything she says or posts. Just like this topic and the scripture we POST WHICH STATES clearly that JUDAS WAS a devil from the beginning and NEVER CLEAN and when she rejects this truth, js dishonest and we call her on it, not only does she in pride refuse it, she mouths, accuses us, attempts to twist it back on us and then GETS SUPPORT FROM OTHER DISHONEST people thay claim to be saved....it is sickening!

 

[dcontroversal]

Do not address me....you are dishonest and very deceptive....probably one of the worst I have seen on this site in 6 years and the account from Star is spot on...

You have no authority to tell me what to do. Stop writing me if you want that response from me.

 

[DorothyMae]

I honestly cannot even engage her anymore.....there is not an ounce of contextual honesty in anything she says or posts. Just like this topic and the scripture we POST WHICH STATES clearly that JUDAS WAS a devil from the beginning and NEVER CLEAN and when she rejects this truth, js dishonest and we call her on it, not only does she in pride refuse it, she mouths, accuses us, attempts to twist it back on us and then GETS SUPPORT FROM OTHER DISHONEST people thay claim to be saved....it is sickening!

What scripture says Judas was a devil from the beginning?

This?
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Who is Jesus addressing?

 

[Lafftur]

Peter fell away from the faith. Jesus said he prayed extra hard for Peter, just mentioned doing so for Peter. If Peter has not repented he would have been lost. We must keep in mind decisions in time change the course of our lives and destinies.

Peter is not a good example for your position because Jesus says he would fall away, something you don’t believe can happen at all anywhere in time.

No, DorothyMae.......the contrast of Judas and Peter is an excellent example of how all that are “lost” NEVER believed; and some may deny Christ when their faith is being sifted as wheat by Satan but, Jesus prayed for Peter and us that our faith in Jesus will NOT FAIL us and after we are tested and tried we are to strengthen our brethren.

 

[dcontroversal]

Your battle is against God's Word, not me.

Your battle is against contextual honesty and you are losing man!

 

[DorothyMae]

Do not address me....you are dishonest and very deceptive....probably one of the worst I have seen on this site in 6 years and the account from Star is spot on...

Stop addressing me. I was on a previous site but I don’t remember star. I suppose she decided he/she is a star now and not a regular person so the upgraded name.