Not By Works

[DorothyMae]

This mantra of yours "the bad fruit of OSAS" is pure deflection ... no one here is attacking... you just want to accuse.

Shall I quote Mag for you and apply it to you? Shall I saying to
you that lying won’t help your cause?

 

[EleventhHour]

Where does the scripture say any of them at that point were now saved and would always be saved??

They were not yet filled with the Holy Spirit. Notice the scripture says Satan entered Judas only after Judas had already laid plans of his own free will to betray him. He had DONE wrong. This wasn’t so from the beginning.

First we know that salvation is not losable scripture is clear, therefore we can deduce that Judas was never saved because a person cannot be saved and then lose their salvation.

As always with NOSAS you try to retrofit ... FAUlTY.. we do not retrofit to suit our dogma

 

[EleventhHour]

Shall I quote Mag for you and apply it to you? Shall I saying to
you that lying won’t help your cause?

Well when a person misrepresents what is plain as day in scripture we can deduce that person is lying can we not?

 

[EleventhHour]

Shall I quote Mag for you and apply it to you? Shall I saying to
you that lying won’t help your cause?

If you think I am lying show me?

 

[EleventhHour]

I agree, and this can be supported with the Scriptures about Judas.
John 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

Agree, there are many places where his true colours started to bleed through.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Agree, there are many places where his true colours started to bleed through.

"one of those is not like the others"... spot the odd one out

 

[oyster67]

Good night everybody. God bless.

 

[Magenta]

None of them support your position that Judas never acknowledged that Jesus is Lord but the others did. None of them support your position that Judas never surrendered his sin nature but the others did. Yes you have some scripture but they don’t support your position. You OSAS guys are really quick to personally attack. I didn’t say anything against your character and you call me lying. Not mistaken but lying.

This is the bad fruit from OSAS I continually see.

I did give verses of some of the others' confessions of faith in Jesus as Lord (Peter, Thomas, James- whom you specifically questioned whether he had or not as if you are unaware of the Scripture he wrote attesting to such), as well as mentioning their receiving the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and agreeing with what others have given which state Jesus knew who was not a believer from the beginning, all of which is Scriptural, among other verses, but you then turn around and claim I did not give Scripture. That is not a mistake regardless of your desire to paint yourself a victim. It is time for an evening walk, as the sun approaches the horizon. Bye for now.

 

[DorothyMae]

First we know that salvation is not losable scripture is clear, therefore we can deduce that Judas was never saved because a person cannot be saved and then lose their salvation.

As always with NOSAS you try to retrofit ... FAUlTY.. we do not retrofit to suit our dogma

First we know that people do change their minds about pretty much everything in life they can decide upon. This we can deduce that Judas and the 70 who decided to follow Jesus changed their minds when it got difficult. Jesus says this happens. That much is clear from a epos die experience in life.

That what a person becomes in the end is not always what they were in the beginning seems to be ignored.

 

[PennEd]

Jesus told others to count the cost before they choose to follow. He didn’t promise once “born again” they’ll have a new heart so they’ll be no cost too high.

27Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. 28For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?29Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ 31

Notice Jesus warns us and doesn’t promise he’ll bear all for us and that not finishing is possible.

You know, it’s better to press in and seek Him, read his word, discipline your life to staying true rather then relying on a theology that tells you He is doing all that for you.

What this has to do with the original point that just because someone casts out a demon in Jesus Name doesn’t mean He EVER knew them, and they were NEVER born again, like Judas, I have no idea.

But whatever makes you feel better I guess.

 

[EleventhHour]

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

If you understood and read this properly you would see that Jesus saying that he saved and protected all of his disciples except for Judas.

He refers to Judas as the "son of perdition" saying that he was the only one who he did not protect.

Again you are reading this to fit your presupposition as always!

 

[EleventhHour]

First we know that people do change their minds about pretty much everything in life they can decide upon. This we can deduce that Judas and the 70 who decided to follow Jesus changed their minds when it got difficult. Jesus says this happens. That much is clear from a epos die experience in life.

That what a person becomes in the end is not always what they were in the beginning seems to be ignored.

The temporal and the eternal are two separate realities.

A person is saved in eternity that is why NOSAS makes no sense.

 

[DorothyMae]

I did give verses of some of the others' confessions of faith in Jesus as Lord (Peter, Thomas, James- whom you specifically questioned whether he had or not as if you are unaware of the Scripture he wrote attesting to such), as well as mentioning their receiving the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and agreeing with what others have given which state Jesus knew who was not a believer from the beginning, all of which is Scriptural, among other verses, but you then turn around and claim I did not give Scripture.

I asked for Thaddeus. Of course after seeing the risen Christ Thomas confesses. What about when Judas was with the 12? Where in the gospels does James say Jesus is Lord? We are talking pre crucifixion when Judas was with them. What happened at Pentecost doesn’t affect Judas being like the rest in scripture at that point. You claim Judas was different by not confessing Jesus is Lord during that time. In scripture we see no difference between Judas and the 11 except he STARTED stealing which eventually with more time led to his betrayal. He was the same as the others in scripture until he started choosing differently. Judas fell.

That is not a mistake regardless of your desire to paint yourself a victim. It is time for an evening walk, as the sun approaches the horizon. Bye for now.

Hope you enjoyed your walk. I know you guys won’t see it but others read these posts and perhaps can see the blindness. OSAS just has to be right for you. You’ve hung your whole eternity on that theology.

Btw, My assurance comes from a living and vital relationship with my Father for which I take full responsibility for doing my part.

 

[DorothyMae]

What this has to do with the original point that just because someone casts out a demon in Jesus Name doesn’t mean He EVER knew them, and they were NEVER born again, like Judas, I have no idea.

But whatever makes you feel better I guess.

It shows OSAS to be false. Does OSAS make you feel better than taking care that no one deceive you and you fall away?

 

[DorothyMae]

I agree, and this can be supported with the Scriptures about Judas.
John 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

He wasn’t doing so from the beginning. This is how sin starts. Choices in time that become habits. Habits become character. But the final character is not what a person was at the start.

 

[DorothyMae]

The temporal and the eternal are two separate realities.

A person is saved in eternity that is why NOSAS makes no sense.

There is no scriptural support for a temporal decision that cannot be affected by subsequent temporal decisions. Names written in can be blotted out. Names not there can be written in.

 

[DorothyMae]

Correct, they all operated in power. But that isn't a case for Judas' salvation. Jesus says here:
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

"never knew you"
I never knew you.
Does this sound like they were saved and known by Jesus, but then lost salvation?

Jesus never pronounces anything different between them as to salvation. Judas was as saved as the rest.

Jesus, by the way, definitely knew Judas. He even knew what was in his heart. That’s why it is called a betrayal. So that scripture does not apply to Judas. They were friends.

The parable of the different kinds of dirt is a long passage on the reasons faith dies in people. Not a single sentence but a whole teaching.

 

[DorothyMae]

I believe dcon called JUDAS the devil from the beginning, and not any conversation participants...
If I am wrong let him correct me, since I was about to say something about it myself but then realized he was talking about Judas...

I agree and didn’t think differently. But d is otherwise handy with the ad hominem.

 

[DorothyMae]

Well when a person misrepresents what is plain as day in scripture we can deduce that person is lying can we not?

You can. You believe all future sins are forgive I assume or at least sins don’t matter much so you can let er rip. I can’t. I try to avoid sin so I say “mistaken” which is simply human error and treating others kindly.

 

[SoulWeaver]

He wasn’t doing so from the beginning. This is how sin starts. Choices in time that become habits. Habits become character. But the final character is not what a person was at the start.

There is no solid Scriptural proof that Judas wasn't like this off the start though. This is something we might speculate on, but we read opposite things like, "Jesus knew from the beginning who would not believe", "not clean", "devil". The Scripture is overwhelming that speaks about Judas like he was never saved, and does not lead to conclusion at all that he was - at least for me.

The main case against Judas being saved but then lost, are the two Scriptures about Jesus "losing none". If the "son of perdition" was indeed given to Jesus, then this breaks the other Scripture in John, where it states that Jesus "lost none who are given" (like I cited before). Jesus either loses none, or loses some. Unless a solid explanation is provided to reconcile these two Scriptures and make them not contradict, I will stay at my current position.

It's okay to have different positions on this, we still follow Jesus. I am super grateful if the other side at least sees where I'm coming from. Have a blessed night, I'm about to retire to sleep.