Not By Works

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Judges1318 said:
As you yourself say, trusting God (believing) is not a work of meritorious self righteousness, so it can not somehow be me trying to preserve myself in some kind of works gospel.
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You sure make "continuing" to believe sound like a lot of hard work with your "don't stop believing" mantra, which equates to self preservation. God said that He does not forsake His saints and they are preserved forever.. (Psalm 37:28)

So does God only preserve those who preserve themselves? :unsure:
 
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preacher4truth said:
Not at all. You are missing the point altogether, but this is likely willful on your part.

There is such a thing as evidence of conversion, works that show this, and a distinction between justification and sanctification.

Many people think if they have the former they don’t need the latter and all it entails in its synergistic cooperation as a result of genuine conversion. Philippians 2:12-13 and Ezekiel 36:26-27 are two texts that show this. If a person claims the former but does not have the latter they have neither.

But, I’m not about to go back and forth with you over it as I’ve found you to be irrational and unreasonable and you will only continue to disagree with these plain truths and make false and baseless accusations.

I would invite you to read up on holiness, justification and sanctification, unless you already know so much you’re beyond relearning or broadening your understanding. I suspect you’re not willing and already know it all. The book “Holiness” by J C Ryle is a recommendation for you.
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I am actually not missing the point

I am actually quite rational and reasonable


I never stated there should not be evidence of conversion.... my point is between "must" "will" and "should"


If a person claims the former but does not have the latter they have neither.
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Again what does this mean in practical terms .. has the person been given instruction... this is sweeping statement I just do not see how one can make such a generalization

But then maybe I have more practical experience with the unchurched, downtrodden, "big time sinners" of the world and their challenges.

If you think these people walk in holiness over night you would be sadly mistaken.

I firmly hold salvation is a free gift not given based on future performance... people have to yield, abide to the process of being transformed and that happens in varying degrees with sometimes huge setbacks.

I just think I am more willing to accept that people are complicated and you prefer a more simplified version... I wish what you state were true as everything in the Christian walk would be so much more easy and black and white but it is not.
 
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mailmandan said:
I get my understanding of Faith from the Greek Scriptures. I have a Strong's expanded exhaustive concordance of the Bible and Pisteuo #4100 says - to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), to entrust (especially one's spiritual well being to Christ). It goes on to say, pisteuo means not just to believe, but also to be persuaded of; and hence, to place confidence in, to trust, and signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon.

*So saving faith is (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation.
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Amen and Amen!!

Thank you!
 
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preacher4truth said:
Can you or @Judges1318 show me where he stated this? I’d like to see it in context. I’m not thinking he’s a works salvation person, perhaps his wording makes it appear thus? For the record @Pisteuo is definitely a works salvationist.
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Just hang out a bit. You will are judges not only is works. He hates the thought of eternal security and thinks we are misled Lovers of sin
 
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preacher4truth said:
Not at all. You are missing the point altogether, but this is likely willful on your part.

There is such a thing as evidence of conversion, works that show this, and a distinction between justification and sanctification.

Many people think if they have the former they don’t need the latter and all it entails in its synergistic cooperation as a result of genuine conversion. Philippians 2:12-13 and Ezekiel 36:26-27 are two texts that show this. If a person claims the former but does not have the latter they have neither.

But, I’m not about to go back and forth with you over it as I’ve found you to be irrational and unreasonable and you will only continue to disagree with these plain truths and make false and baseless accusations.

I would invite you to read up on holiness, justification and sanctification, unless you already know so much you’re beyond relearning or broadening your understanding. I suspect you’re not willing and already know it all. The book “Holiness” by J C Ryle is a recommendation for you.
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Again. The saved prodigal son and unsaved religious person destroys your theory.
 
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mailmandan said:
You sure make "continuing" to believe sound like a lot of hard work with your "don't stop believing" mantra
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No, the struggle is with the world competing against one's trust in God.
And my mantra, if that's what you want to call it, comes right out of the Bible.

mailmandan said:
God said that He does not forsake His saints and they are preserved forever.. (Psalm 37:28)
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This is absolutely and without the slightest doubt true for the person who perseveres in faith to the very end.
That's why the Bible exhorts us to keep believing--so we will inherit the promises:

"12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised." - Hebrews 6:12

mailmandan said:
So does God only preserve those who preserve themselves? :unsure:
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He preserves those who cling to the One who preserves them.
 
Judges1318 said:
No, the struggle is with the world competing against one's trust in God.
And my mantra, if that's what you want to call it, comes right out of the Bible.

This is absolutely and without the slightest doubt true for the person who perseveres in faith to the very end.
That's why the Bible exhorts us to keep believing--so we will inherit the promises:

"12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised." - Hebrews 6:12
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Those who persevere in faith to the very end demonstrate that their faith was firmly rooted and established from the start. Don't forget, there genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians mixed in with the group. Hebrews 4:1-2 - "For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest.. Hebrews 10:39 - But WE are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul.

He preserves those who cling to the One who preserves them.
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There it is -- "self preservation." Genuine believers cling to Him because they are His children. It's not a difficult burden or tightrope act. Regardless, justify your mantra however you want and continue to play your one string banjo if you like. ;)
 
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OneOfHis said:
I believe the primary difference between you and I is that you seem to believe a man who has been born of God and has a saving faith.... can ultimately end up in hell or the lake of fire depending on what the rest of his walk after that point looks like....
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No, depending on what his faith --his believing--looks like.
But surely, that will also determine what his walk looks like too, for sanctification is by faith too. So if you stop believing, your sanctification will end too and you will go back to the world and be condemned with the world. You won't have Christ to cover your sins anymore because you don't believe in him anymore.
 
mailmandan said:
Those who persevere in faith to the very end demonstrate that their faith was firmly rooted and established from the start.
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Maybe the word was firmly rooted from the start, maybe not.
But surely, when the word is deeply rooted in good and noble 'soil' it's easier for that person to persevere in their believing. The Galatians are an example of the word not being very deeply rooted in a saved person.
 
mailmandan said:
Don't forget, there genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians mixed in with the group. Hebrews 4:1-2 - "For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest.. Hebrews 10:39 - But WE are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul.
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Here's the quote in context:

"9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised." - Hebrews 6:9-12

See, he's talking to saved people, their work and love being the 'things that have to do with salvation'. (as opposed to the barren fields of vs. 7-8).

Note:
-we are convinced of better thing in your case-salvation
-he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him
-we want you to show this same diligence to the very end
-we don't want you to become lazy but through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

The exhortation is very clear. He wants these saved people to continue in faith and patience (the perseverance of faith) to the very end so they will inherit what has been promised.
 
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