Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

I lost count.

Same ole story

 

[gb9]

Same ole story

key word- ole ( old).
same people have something shown or proven to them, same people continue to demand proof or ineterpertation of same thing they have been shown …..

 

[Judges1318]

1 Corinthians 6:11 - And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.....But not saved, huh? You interpret the Bible through the lens of attacking OSAS.

Read carefully so you don't have to wonder incorrectly about my position:

The justified person is indeed very much saved at the moment of justification/ sanctification. The question is whether or not they will continue in that justification/ sanctification in order to continue to be saved and prepared to meet Jesus when He comes back.

To my knowledge, the only thing you disagree with me about is whether or not a justified person can go back to unbelief. Since Hebrews 10:29 can't be a willfully sinning unbeliever made clean by the blood of Christ for contact with the church (no such person exists), it has to be talking about the person who was once justified by the blood Christ but who now tramples on that blood in unbelief.

 

[Judges1318]

I feel so sad for these people who keep rejecting the righteousness of Christ... but... one day they will see how "many wonderful works in His name" will gain them nothing....

Does this include having to trust in Christ?

 

[mailmandan]

To my knowledge, the only thing you disagree with me about is whether or not a justified person can go back to unbelief. Since Hebrews 10:29 can't be a willfully sinning unbeliever made clean by the blood of Christ for contact with the church (no such person exists), it has to be talking about the person who was once justified by the blood Christ but who now tramples on that blood in unbelief.

We certainly disagree here and I already covered this multiple times.

 

[Judges1318]

The NASB reads - so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. I noticed that you try really hard to force everything to fit with NOSAS.

I gave you the link that shows 'become' is in the subjunctive mood, the mood of uncertainty. That means 'might' be made heirs, not 'definitely' made heirs. What does your doctrine do with that?

"7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life." - Titus 3:7

Definition of "Subjunctive"
Is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/tit/3/1/t_conc_1132007

I figger if you're going to use Romans 8:30 to show the certainty of the justified being saved you should have some explanation for this verse where the uncertainty of the justified being saved is shared by Paul. I think I know what you'll do with it. But I will let you go there first.

 

[star]

Amen to that! I was a member of the bible-discussion forum and not long before that website shut down, it reached the point to where it had just about been completely hijacked by false teachers and the hate, contention and slander there was unbearable! The venom in the threads/posts on that website flowed like lava, which is why I stopped posting on that website and about 2 months later, it shut down.

Of all the Christian forums on the internet, Christian Chat is still my favorite.

It became the most snake filled place ever. Moderators didn't help either

 

[star]

I honestly do not know of a single member of a legitimate church who doesn't know this (save perhaps one person). The church sure likes to harp on an issue that's actually a non-issue in the church.

The issue is what does saving faith look like, and does it have to look like that for it to be considered genuine faith and for you to remain saved in Christ.

The "church" is the Body of Christ. Not a building, temple, etc. The issue is that God does the saving, not us. Genuine faith? God decides that as well. Only God knows the "heart" of man. I go by His word that if I believe in Him and His work on the Cross unto salvation, I am saved. Remain saved? Once saved always saved.

 

[Judges1318]

I've heard certain people misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 (usually Campbellites) in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally confess with their mouth."

I definitely resist such a legalistic understanding of that verse. Just because they don't handle the verse properly doesn't mean we shouldn't seek to understand the role of works in salvation. Not justification (Paul's justification). We know works play no role whatsoever in that.

"9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." - Romans 10:9-10

What we need to do is understand the relationship between believing and justification, and the relationship between doing something and salvation. Not in a 'works earn salvation' kind of way, because we both know that is quite clearly and thoroughly debunked in scripture. Other scriptures make this distinction too. The church has thrown the baby out with the bathwater regarding the issue of works and salvation. See, you came from the troubled Catholic Church to an equally troubled Protestant church. We're just deeply troubled in a different way.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The "church" is the Body of Christ. Not a building, temple, etc. The issue is that God does the saving, not us. Genuine faith? God decides that as well. Only God knows the "heart" of man. I go by His word that if I believe in Him and His work on the Cross unto salvation, I am saved. Remain saved? Once saved always saved.

They will not accept it because it hurts their pride!they want tohave a part

 

[VCO]

How many times has he been shown this

I wonder too that Judges1318, does not seem to mind that his interpretation, creates Contradictions. I know for a fact, that Mormons are taught the Bible is full of Contradictions. So could Judges1318 be a MORMON ? ? ?

I confronted Mormons Missionaries in my Driveway once, and after the second time I said that contradicts this Verse, and quoted it. One of the Two Missionaries interjected, "I do not see what that matters, because the BIBLE is full of contradictions."

The a couple minutes later I discovered by accident the SURE FIRED WAY to get rid of Mormon Missionaries.

I said, "There is only one thing about Joseph Smith's teachings that I object to, IF YOU DIE BELIEVING IT, YOU ARE CERTAINLY GOING TO GO TO HELL." INSTANTLY, both of them got on their Bicycles, one rode as fast as he could out of the Driveway, the other rode round and round me about 4 times, SHOUTING over and over again: "I can't believe you just pronounced us to Hell! I can't believe you just pronounced us to Hell! I can't believe you just pronounced us to Hell!" And he too rode out of the driveway as fast as he could, and turned towards the Post Office where I worked. You see, I had a Mormon Postmaster, and they tried to get me fired. John my Postmaster said he could not do that. SO John, called the Prison were I was a Volunteer Chaplain, and tried to get me FIRED from that position. The Head CHAPLAIN, then called me Laughing all the time, and told me what had just happened.

 

[EleventhHour]

Yes, maybe... I don't know who pays them

To be "in the know" you have to take a solemn oath of secrecy .... I would not recommend it for you.

Ignorance is bliss...I will carry the burden for all of us.

 

[VCO]

In Romans 7, Paul is addressing the Jews... we need to understand that. The Jews have the written Torah (law) and oral Torah (law)... which one do you think Paul was referring to that will lead you to death?

THE ENTIRE PURPOSE FOR THE LAW, CAN BE SUMMED UP IN THESE VERSES:

Romans 7:7 (HCSB)
7 What should we say then? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin if it were not for the law. For example, I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, Do not covet.

Romans 3:20 (HCSB)
20 For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin ⌊comes⌋ through the law.


The LAW was NEVER a means by which we could make yourselves RIGHTEOUS in GOD's sight. IT WAS ALWAYS SO HIGH OF A STANDARD, THAT WE WOULD FIND IT IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP IT PERFECTLY, THEREBY, DRIVING US TO OUR KNEES SEEKING A MESSIAH TO SAVE US.


James 2:10 (HCSB)
10 For whoever keeps the entire law, yet fails in one point, is guilty of ⌊breaking it⌋ all.


Old Testament Saints were those who BELIEVED that God would send a MESSIAH to pay for their SINS.

New Testament Saints are those who BELIEVE that God DID send a MESSIAH to pay for our SINS.

IT IS THE SAME AS ABRAHAM'S FAITH.

NEVER was the Law a system where we out of our own strength could make ourselves Right with GOD.

Both Groups of SAINTS were SAVED do GOD's Mercy and Grace, though a FAITH that was not of ourselves.

Isaiah 1:13-18 (HCSB)
13 Stop bringing useless offerings. ⌊Your⌋ incense is detestable to Me. New Moons and Sabbaths, and the calling of solemn assemblies— I cannot stand iniquity with a festival.
14 I hate your New Moons and prescribed festivals. They have become a burden to Me; I am tired of putting up with ⌊them⌋.
15 When you lift up your hands ⌊in prayer⌋, I will refuse to look at you; even if you offer countless prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood.
16 “Wash yourselves. Cleanse yourselves. Remove your evil deeds from My sight. Stop doing evil.
17 Learn to do what is good. Seek justice. Correct the oppressor. Defend the rights of the fatherless. Plead the widow’s cause.
18 “Come, let us discuss this,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are as red as crimson, they will be like wool.


The JEWS LOWERED the LAW OF GOD, to where they COULD KEEP IT THEMSELVES, and thought they were RIGHT WITH GOD, Because they Could KEEP the Lowered Standard ritualistically, they stopped SEEKING a MESSIAH who could DO IT ALL.

Now we have another Generation, that have Stopped SEEKING a MESSIAH who could DO IT ALL, and think their LOWERED STANDARD, of KEEPING the LAW makes themselves, out of their own efforts, RIGHT WITH GOD. Anytime your WORKS have a MOTIVE of improving your SALVATION, IT IS FOOLISHNESS. You need to become 100% dependent on HIS MERCY and GRACE.

If you want your SINS washed as white as snow, REPENT, and stop thinking your deeds have made you right with GOD, and LEARN to rely on what JESUS DID ON THE CROSS. HIS MERCY, and HIS GRACE, will keep, your Sins already washed as White as SNOW. Then you will be free indeed, and then you can use that freedom to agapē LOVE GOD by striving to become Obedient out of PURE LOVE.

Until you do, you are in the same sinking ship as the JEWS that GOD described in Isaiah 1:13-18

 

[EleventhHour]

The problem is osas has devolved even further into a doctrine that says you don't even have to continue to believe in Christ to be saved when He comes back. That's where it crosses the line from being just another innocent opinion about doctrine.

This is nonsense...however the problems with conditional salvation are definitely true and the list is endless.

The main ones being conditional salvation creates an Alternate Jesus who is powerless, untrustworthy, does not bequeath salvation as gift but as a reward and does not finish what he starts.

 

[EleventhHour]

Have you ever posted on CC under a different username or screen name than "Kolistus"?

I was thinking the same.

 

[OneOfHis]

The "church" is the Body of Christ. Not a building, temple, etc. The issue is that God does the saving, not us. Genuine faith? God decides that as well. Only God knows the "heart" of man. I go by His word that if I believe in Him and His work on the Cross unto salvation, I am saved. Remain saved? Once saved always saved.

Amen sis, well said.

 

[dcontroversal]

Not unless you think continuing to believe is a work like other people here do.

Can I ask a question.....are you dense or just wilfully obstinate to the truth?

What part of FINISH and COMPLETE do you not understand.....?

JESUS finishes and completes FAITH IN US PAL....and I for one am sick to death of your devaluation of JESUS and FAITH by your self serving, self sustained satanic faith NOT given in scripture.....!

 

[dcontroversal]

The problem is osas has devolved even further into a doctrine that says you don't even have to continue to believe in Christ to be saved when He comes back. That's where it crosses the line from being just another innocent opinion about doctrine.

Take your false view up with those inspired to pen the scriptures

If we become faithless, he abides faithful because he cannot deny himself.

What you peddle is not of God pal....make no mistake......!

 

[dcontroversal]

I understand them perfectly.
Honestly, I think you're being too defensive and not reading my posts objectively.

You don't even understand biblical faith, much less Greek verb tense....you may be able to fool a few here, but anyone with an ounce of understanding can see through your religious psycho babble....

 

[Nobodybutjesus]

I am not going to take Jesus out of context

can a non believer care for others yes
that does not mean they love in a way God wants us to love

the Bible is clear. Our capacity to truly love is based on the fact God loves us first
when do we experience that love? At salvation

Whether you agree with this or not is up to you

Now will you answer My original question and tell me if you think you can make yourself right with god before he saves you? Since it appears his is what you were saying

please note when someone asks you a question. Don’t demand they answer you when you have yet answered them

This is funny. Let's check who asked the question from our convo.

This is works based, putting the cart before the horse as I call it salvation,

it says I must clean myself up first, then maybe God will accept me.
as apposed to coming to our knees as the tax collector (sinner) and calling out to God because you have realized how broken and bankrupt you are, calling out for God’s mercy,

we can’t love our neighbor UNTIL we are saved, until then we are totally in the flesh, with no capacity to truly love anyone, as we are bound to take care of self.

we love BECAUSE he first loved us,(because we are saved)

thus, those who are saved are a work in process. And he who began a good work WILL (not might) complete that work. That’s the promise of God. We should hold on to that promise. For it is the hope we have placed our faith in.

the Reason those people never did those things is because they were never saved, since they were never saved, they had no capacity to love.

Was the good Samaritan already saved or not?

ASV Luke 10:25-37
¶And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

There goes my question to you and let's see your presumptuous reply.

so you think you must make yourself righteous first. then Go to God and see here I am lord. accept me? this worries me deeply

as for the good Samaritan. Look in context. Jesus was talking to religious people who thought they were Gods people. and trying to show them how unrighteous they were. because they would be of those who walked around and did not help.

Jesus was mocking their religion and thinking they are righteous. Not trying to tell them how to be saved

I'm not deeply worried about your presumptions so don't woory.

The lawyer was asking Jesus what he shall do to inherit eternal life and Jesus gave him an example of love for a neighbor.

What I am asking is, if the Samaritan in Jesus' example was already saved or not? Yes or no?

And here you are now with this...

"please note when someone asks you a question. Don’t demand they answer you when you have yet answered them."

I'm not gonna buy this. Thanks anyway.

Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited. Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Romans 12:9‭-‬21 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/rom.12.9-21.NIV