Not By Works

dcontroversal · Feb 3, 2020

We all already know how dishonest Judges is........go back and read......one of the most dishonest people on this site.....constantly accusing of the same crap they accused Paul of in his day......I.E. Because we believe in eternal security he accuses us of a live as we please and sin like the devil doctrine.....

Judges1318 · Feb 3, 2020

Guojing said:

Funny you should ask.
I was going to comment about that and say his letter does not contain the conflict the Jerusalem elders had with Paul. So I'm good with the book of James.
I mean now that I know 'justified' has (at least) two distinct definitions.
I learned that in an on-line forum a few years ago.
Put an end to all the twisting and straining to get Paul and James to not be in what seemed to be a contradiction with each other about justification.

Guojing · Feb 3, 2020

Judges1318 said:

The book of James was written before the events in Acts 21, so obviously it won't contain that conflict. It spells out how James view what the Jews must do.

So if you concluded that James was wrong in Acts 21, he should have realized that even the Jews are "dead to the Law of Moses", why would his letter, which was directed to the Jews, and talk about faith without works being dead, and the necessity for law keeping, now be correct to you?

mailmandan · Feb 3, 2020

Judges1318 said:

What? You mean James 2:24 doesn't mean what it says? Sound familiar?

You are correct that "justified" has (at least) two distinct definitions.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." When Paul uses the term "justified," he is referring to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. Man is saved through faith and not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

lightbearer · Feb 3, 2020

VCO said:

Amen, well except your comment on what James was referring to as the Royal Law. That is disclosed in verse 8. If that is the NCV translation that you posted they really hacked it up. The verse reads from the Greek pretty much as the KJV puts forth.

If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
(Jas 2:8 KJV)

The royal Law is the Ten Commandments. If we are fulfilling these according to Scripture we shall Love our neighbor as ourselves we are doing well. That is what the grammar and sentence structure state.

But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law (the Royal Law) as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole (Royal) law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the (Royal) law.
(Jas 2:9-11 KJV)

As we continue James speaks of another Law though. The Law of Liberty.

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
(Jas 2:12 KJV)

This Law of Liberty is disclosed in chapter one.

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word (the engrafted word), and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word (the engrafted word), and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face( Begotten face through the word of truth, a first fruit of God's creatures) in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty (the new man, creature begotten by God through the word of truth with the engrafted word), and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work (that God has done to the heart), this man shall be blessed in his deed.
(Jas 1:18-25)

Amen!

Nobodybutjesus · Feb 3, 2020

dcontroversal said:

I just hope that you have considered these truths below as essential parts of the truth.

We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
1 John 2:3‭-‬6 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/1jn.2.3-6.NIV

During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
Hebrews 5:7‭-‬10 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/heb.5.7-10.NIV

We need to follow in His steps.

To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
1 Peter 2:21 NIV
https://1peter.bible/1-peter-2-21

This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.
1 John 3:16‭-‬18 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/1jn.3.16-18.NIV

Praise God.
Let"s bring Glory to God.

“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.
John 17:6‭-‬10 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/jhn.17.6-10.NIV

VCO · Feb 3, 2020

lightbearer said:

Amen, well except your comment on what James was referring to as the Royal Law. That is disclosed in verse 8. If that is the NCV translation that you posted they really hacked it up. The verse reads from the Greek pretty much as the KJV puts forth.

If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
(Jas 2:8 KJV)

The royal Law is the Ten Commandments. If we are fulfilling these according to Scripture we shall Love our neighbor as ourselves we are doing well. That is what the grammar and sentence structure state.

But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law (the Royal Law) as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole (Royal) law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the (Royal) law.
(Jas 2:9-11 KJV)

As we continue James speaks of another Law though. The Law of Liberty.

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
(Jas 2:12 KJV)

This Law of Liberty is disclosed in chapter one.

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word (the engrafted word), and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word (the engrafted word), and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face( Begotten face through the word of truth, a first fruit of God's creatures) in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty (the new man, creature begotten by God through the word of truth with the engrafted word), and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work (that God has done to the heart), this man shall be blessed in his deed.
(Jas 1:18-25)

Amen!

I usually do not post with the New Century Version. And when I do, it is because the person I posted to, may not understand a more complicated Version. My personal favorite is the Translation is the HCSB, which is an ACTUAL TRANSLATION, whereas the KJV is only a paraphrase from the 5 or 6 older English translations.

mailmandan · Feb 3, 2020

VCO said:

I like how the HCSB translates John 3:36 - The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him. I often hear those who promote salvation by faith PLUS WORKS cite the NASB, which reads - He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. They then write a blank check with the word "obey" and proceed to fill in whatever amount of works they feel are necessary to be saved, yet to "obey" the Son here is to "choose to believe in the Son."

eternally-gratefull · Feb 3, 2020

Kolistus said:

I have, a lot of ups and downs

VCO · Feb 3, 2020

Nobodybutjesus said:

You have to understand, that JOHN's favorite verb tense, is one of the one's we do not have in English. It does not imply Perfection of the word KEEP. Rather it implies the Direction of striving to KEEP. Salvation happens the MOMENT we genuinely Believe in our Heart (human spirit), and striving to KEEP HIS COMMANDS, is something we do later, and is Part of our Agape Love, that HE poured into our Heart, Rom. 5:5, the moment we willingly surrendered as a willing Bondservant (willing slave), purely out of that Agape LOVE, which is Born Again. That willing slave, is part of surrendering to HIM as LORD.

You seem to think your obedience produces LOVE for GOD? You have that, if you meant it that way, 180 degrees backwards.
Genuine Agape LOVE, WILL PRODUCE AS DESIRE STRIVE TO OBEY HIM.

John 14:15 (CSBBible)
15 "If you love me [you are Saved the moment you genuinely love him, which comes first],
[then you will want to strive to obey, out of LOVE for HIM] you will keep my commands. [.That Greek verb tense is NOT IN ENGLISH, and it means to strive to keep, NOT PERFECTION.]

VCO · Feb 3, 2020

mailmandan said:

AMEN! Another who like the HCSB! I like it because they are not afraid to use Yahweh!

Isaiah 43:10-11 (HCSB)
10 “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
11 I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.

Malachi 3:6 (HCSB)
6 “Because I, Yahweh, have not changed,
you descendants of Jacob have not been destroyed.

CherieR · Feb 3, 2020

A poem I wrote tonight:

Come take a walk with me
Let the fears fall aside
You were made for more
Come out of hiding
Come out into the light

Release now the tight grip
Let go and you'll find
I am here
I am always here for you

Nobodybutjesus · Feb 4, 2020

VCO said:

Do we need to have faith to be saved? YES
Do we need to love God by loving one another to be saved?
YES

In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
1 John 5:3 NIV
https://1john.bible/1-john-5-3

You have said in response to Kolistus that, "therefore Obedience is PART OF THAT LOVE, and NEVER HAS BEEN PART OF SALVATION." Did Jesus told (taught) the apostles about this?

If I don't love my neighbor as I love myself, will I be saved according to the Scriptures?

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 25:45‭-‬46 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/mat.25.45-46.NIV

GandalfTheWhite · Feb 4, 2020

EleventhHour said:

Yes, maybe... I don't know who pays them

GandalfTheWhite · Feb 4, 2020

Judges1318 said:

In Romans 7, Paul is addressing the Jews... we need to understand that. The Jews have the written Torah (law) and oral Torah (law)... which one do you think Paul was referring to that will lead you to death?

Judges1318 · Feb 4, 2020

mailmandan said:

It means exactly what it says.
No twisting, no subversion, no creative interpretations necessary.
The plain words are there for everyone to read.

"18 "...show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." - James 2:18

"24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." - James 2:24

The passage interprets itself.

Judges1318 · Feb 4, 2020

Guojing said:

Show us how what James says to do is different from what Paul says.

Guojing said:

What is notably absent from James' letter is any admonition to keep Sabbaths, get circumcised, etc. That's why I have no problem with it.

Guojing said:

How is this different than what Paul wrote?

JAMES:
17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. - James 2:17

PAUL:
6 The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. - Galatians 5:6

JAMES:
8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” a you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” b also said, “You shall not murder.” c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. - James 2:8-11

PAUL:
8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” a and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” b 10Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. - Romans 13:8-10

31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. - Romans 3:31

14For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” - Romans 5:14

Judges1318 · Feb 4, 2020

mailmandan said:

Just as vs. 10 & 14 in Hebrews 10 show us which definition of 'sanctified' is being used in verse 29, so it is that James 2:18 shows us which definition of 'justified' James is using in verse 24.

Judges1318 · Feb 4, 2020

mailmandan said:

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." When Paul uses the term "justified," he is referring to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. Man is saved through faith and not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds." - James 2:18

"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." - Galatians 5:6

Judges1318 · Feb 4, 2020

GandalfTheWhite said:

We do, so that it is not misunderstood that the Jews have died to the law too.

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