Not By Works

[PennEd]

Definitely. So is willful sin.

What is willful sin?

 

[EleventhHour]

Someday may you realize that.....the unconquerable safety of justification and positional sanctification is God Himself.

Post 117993 was clear that continuing in belief was not a requirement for your side. And I understand why you make this point. You make it because its a DONE DEAL at the start (hence OSAS kicks into effect). All can read that post. I am telling you that you are dead wrong on this point. Continuation in the faith is 100% scriptural and 100% crucial.

Colossians 1
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

How can you say Repentance is NOT a requirement going forward.

Lets look:

2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

 

[DoY]

What is willful sin?

Willful sin is a great study. Here are a few references where you could start:
* Numbers 15:27-31
* Psalm 19:13
* Hebrews 10:26

 

[EleventhHour]

Thank you for your clarification. I'm relieved to find there is someone else who is not deceived by this doctrine. I used to believe this too, but since studying the Scripture for myself and not blindly believing others, I no longer do. I think we should all fight against sin in our lives....a person who thinks it's ok to sin as a Christian and is not bothering to resist temptation, but hiding behind the "Once Saved Always Saved" doctrine, might be in for a surprise.

I believe ..
* People can "fall away" (Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:38-39)
* We have to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12)
* We have to endure to the end (Matthew 24:13 - He that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved)
* Jesus said: "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit (John 15:2)
* There are mortal sins that those who commit them will not inherit the "kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:19-21)
etc.

For this gift to be offered free to all, it cost God a great deal, how could I then dismiss it, squander it, and willfully continue in sin? Did Jesus go through all that suffering so that I can defile myself with sin? Certainly not.

Mortal sins is a Roman Catholic doctrine... this weighting of sins does not exist in scripture.

As well salvation is a irrevocable gift .. otherwise it is not a gift and OSAS is the Gospel.

 

[EleventhHour]

Willful sin is a great study. Here are a few references where you could start:
* Numbers 15:27-31
* Psalm 19:13
* Hebrews 10:26

I think you have not understood "willful sin"... most all sin is willful.

 

[EleventhHour]

Once again, you have flip flopped across the entire spectrum (saying that unbelief after having believed cannot lose you salvation). That living in sin cannot lose you salvation ---- to this above saying now you cannot live in sin at all.

I gather you have yet to understand "justification" and "positional sanctification"... every post of yours shows this to be true.

Also let it be known I find every post of yours taxes my patience and raises my ire... seriously!

And that you would openly lie about @dcontroversal is just reprehensible.

I rather be accused of being a sinner, and loving my sin any day of the week......... than follow your false doctrine and of this I am completely sure.

I praise God every day because of your posts actually ...... reminds how blessed I am to not be deceived.

 

[Chris1975]

Thank you for your clarification. I'm relieved to find there is someone else who is not deceived by this doctrine. I used to believe this too, but since studying the Scripture for myself and not blindly believing others, I no longer do. I think we should all fight against sin in our lives....a person who thinks it's ok to sin as a Christian and is not bothering to resist temptation, but hiding behind the "Once Saved Always Saved" doctrine, might be in for a surprise.

I believe ..
* People can "fall away" (Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:38-39)
* We have to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12)
* We have to endure to the end (Matthew 24:13 - He that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved)
* Jesus said: "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit (John 15:2)
* There are mortal sins that those who commit them will not inherit the "kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:19-21)
etc.

For this gift to be offered free to all, it cost God a great deal, how could I then dismiss it, squander it, and willfully continue in sin? Did Jesus go through all that suffering so that I can defile myself with sin? Certainly not.

You have it correct. God bless

 

[Chris1975]

ps, a believer already repented, you can not referent once you already repented.

To the church in Ephesus

Revelation 2
5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

What creative answer is there around repentance here?

 

[Chris1975]

I gather you have yet to understand "justification" and "positional sanctification"... every post of yours shows this to be true.

Also let it be known I find every post of yours taxes my patience and raises my ire... seriously!

And that you would openly lie about @dcontroversal is just reprehensible.

I rather be accused of being a sinner, and loving my sin any day of the week......... than follow your false doctrine and of this I am completely sure.

I praise God every day because of your posts actually ...... reminds how blessed I am to not be deceived.

When Jesus and Paul and Peter preached, for sure there was commotion, offense and "ire". Its normal, otherwise its not preaching. In those days people took it a step further and picked up sticks and stones. Then you know you are in the battle.

I have given DCON very specific opportunity to set the record straight. I have summarised what I believe his doctrine implies based on his postings, to which I am then accused. I have given him very specific questions asking him to highlight his EXACT position on what I said, but to this moment he has actively avoided answering them. He could settle this right now. But he won't (he cannot) for then his/and your house of cards collapses.

Another example, say Eternally-Grateful says that Repentance is no longer a requirement because we have repented already. I then post scriptures showing that it still is a continuing requirement. Then a few days later I quote that E-G doesn't believe in continuing repentance. If he then says "hey, you are lying about me, misrepresenting my position , etc ,etc" - then is this not fair game? I am not lying about it. It is what he said. I am free to highlight it because it is a subset of what his doctrinal views are.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do I understand you correctly? Please clarify if I'm misunderstanding.
You believe that Salvation is "irrevocable" regardless of your actions AFTER you accept Christ?
So, you take the free gift and there's NOTHING you can do to "lose it" if you don't want it any more?
You basically lose your free will because you're "sealed" and it's a done deal?

I think he was trying to get you to,study 1 john

if you did, you would know people:who leave were never saved to begin with,

their faith (or lack of) never produced salvation

Gods children don’t lose free will, they just understood their fate apart from Christ, and would never freely chose to reject the one who saved them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Definitely. So is willful sin.

Yep

thats why people born of god can’t live in sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You already answered the first question by quoting 1 John 3:6



One who habitually sins (lifestyle of sin) has not seen Him or known Him. Exactly what Eternally Grateful keeps saying.

if only he could see this

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To the church in Ephesus

Revelation 2
5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

What creative answer is there around repentance here?

You do realise there is a,difference between a whole church (the church at Ephesus) and an induvidual believer do you not? Of course churches lose their way, due to false teachers, and need to repent.

but we are talking about people who repented of their sins, which led them to true saving faith, which caused them to recieve the grace which saves,

 

[mailmandan]

Ezekiel 18
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

In Ezekiel 18:29, we read - But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right? But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

Ezekiel 33:13 - When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his OWN righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. Did you read that? "If he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS." This is the heart of the matter here. This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith.

*The New Testament states in Romans 10:3 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that BELIEVES.

As James Fawcett Brown points out - righteous--one apparently such; as in Matthew 9:13, "I came not to call the righteous," that is, those who fancy themselves righteous.

 

[RebuildJesussChurch]

It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!
New American Standard Bible
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
King James Bible
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Amen! He has regenerated us to be a kingdom of priests and we are looking for a new heaven and a new earth. The Holy City, the New Jerusalem, will come down out of heaven from God and He will make everything new!

He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty He will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and God will be his God, and he will be God's son. But the fearful, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers*, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars - their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur, Rev.21:6-8.

Nothing impure will ever enter the Holy City, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, buy only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life, v. 27. The time is near! Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy.

"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with Me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers*, the idolaters**, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood, Rev.22:11-15.

I warn everyone who hears the words of prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book, v.18,19.

God shows no partiality. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they - and only they - shall see God. I adore what faith in Jesus Christ produces in us - what reverence, what godly fear. Our minds are renewed so that we can test and approve what God's will is; His good, pleasing and perfect will.

*Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. 1 John 3:15
**Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming on those who are disobedient. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. Colossians 3:5-7

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In Ezekiel 18:29, we read - But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right? But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

Ezekiel 33:13 - When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his OWN righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. Did you read that? "If he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS." This is the heart of the matter here. This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith.

*The New Testament states in Romans 10:3 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that BELIEVES.

As James Fawcett Brown points out - righteous--one apparently such; as in Matthew 9:13, "I came not to call the righteous," that is, those who fancy themselves righteous.

Amen, it’s like the workers who come on judgment day, claiming all their works of righteousness done in Jesus name. Yet Jesus tells them to depart for he NEVER KNEW THEM, why? Because they practiced unrighteousness (son) and as John said, as such, they had never seen or known God, period

 

[Chris1975]

You do realise there is a,difference between a whole church (the church at Ephesus) and an induvidual believer do you not? Of course churches lose their way, due to false teachers, and need to repent.

but we are talking about people who repented of their sins, which led them to true saving faith, which caused them to recieve the grace which saves,

I disagree, but for the purposes of advancing dialogue down your way of thinking - So you are then saying God will remove the ENTIRE CHURCH's lampstand. Even that is quite a statement, no? For not doing their first works? How does the whole community get together and align their behaviours? What does the removal of the lampstand mean?

 

[PS]

Dont think that your better than orhers. Just sharing what God the Holy Spitit speaks to me, and your no better, even worse: you dont.even Love your enemies and speak against them ad if they are more mature than you and your jealous. Hopefully you will never hear from me again. That I may rest from this place.

The errors people make when they distort the word of God, are very distressing.

 

[mailmandan]

Yep

same thing

God never knew them (a personal relationship) they were never saved

just like any Person who lives in habitual sin has never known God, (a personal relationship)

neither person was saved.

knowledge is used in both passages in a relational way. Not knowledge of.

Amen! In Matthew 7:23, we read that Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. These many people in Matthew 7:22 who were trusting in works for salvation (Lord, Lord, didn't 'WE') were not true converts. In John 17:3, we read - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge.

1 John 3:9 (NASB) - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 3:9 (AMPC) - No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God’s nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I disagree, but for the purposes of advancing dialogue down your way of thinking - So you are then saying God will remove the ENTIRE CHURCH's lampstand. Even that is quite a statement, no? For not doing their first works? How does the whole community get together and align their behaviours? What does the removal of the lampstand mean?

Yep, that’s what he said he would do, what good is a local group of churches if they are not producing fruit?

if a church walks away he will pull their light

a study of lamp stand and church would do you a great favor,