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Point being people can and do walk away from God. My problem with you people is that you deny this possibility.
Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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Point being people can and do walk away from God. My problem with you people is that you deny this possibility.
Not Born Again CHRISTIANS! And non Born Again disciples are not even SAVED. Disciples are only followers of a teacher. When you REPENT Mournfully, and decide to willing receive HIM as LORD, which means MASTER, that is when the Holy Spirit comes into your life! Up till then you may be an UNSAVED disciple, but you are lord of your own life. Those people can fall away, but they were NEVER SAVED.
NO, HE TOLD US HOW TO TELL.
Matthew 7:16 (NKJV)
16 You will know them by their [spiritual] fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
Matthew 7:20-23 (NKJV)
20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you [that expression means they were not Born Again]; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
Galatians 5:22-23 (NKJV)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is [Agape Godly] love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
1 John 3:16-19 (NKJV)
16 By this we know [Agape Godly] love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the [Agape Godly] love of God abide in him?
18 My little children, let us not [Agapao Godly] love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.
19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him.
So the unregenerate say who have not tasted of the heavenly gift.
Philippians 1:6
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
Hebrews 12:2
looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
The opposite is also TRUE:
1 John 4:8 (NKJV)
8 He who does not [agapaō Godly] love does not know God, for God is [Agape Godly] love.
OH my, that song brought tears to my eye, I had forgotten that is one of my favorites. Please post it on the Thread I started a long time ago, but people are still posts there. It is a thread just for MUSIC.
https://christianchat.com/christian...istian-music-blesses-your-heart.89552/page-35
He obviously has no clue that we can judge his dogma.......
I agree, receiving the gift is a one time deal. That doesn't mean continuing in that one time deal by continuing to believe can't be a requirement to be saved when Jesus comes back. I'm just saying what the Bible says:
If you stop believing you do not have the Son. He who doesn't have the Son doesn't have eternal life:
1 John 2:24, 5:12 KJV
24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
If you do not continue in confidence of the hope to come and depart from God with an evil heart of unbelief you are not a partaker of Christ (remember, those who don't have the Son don't have eternal life-1 John 5:12):
Hebrews 3:6,14 KJV
6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end
You are saved IF you keep in memory the gospel by which you were saved:
1 Corinthians 15:1 KJV
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
If you do not continue to stand by faith you will be cut off, just like the Israelites were cut off and damned for their unbelief:
Romans 11:20-22 KJV
thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
The unbelieving are not saved. They do not inherit the kingdom. They go to the lake of fire:
Revelation 21:8 KJV
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
It's easy to see that I'm just saying what the Bible says.
You'd be better off going back to the old once saved always saved argument that said the person who fell back to unbelief and did not live for Christ was never saved to begin with. You did know that once saved always saved used to teach that you had to keep believing to the end to be saved, didn't you?
The life Christ gives is eternal. Eternal doesn't mean you still have it even if you don't continue to believe. It means the life you have through your believing will never end like it did under the old covenant of works.
Exactly. So don't lose that which guarantees what is to come! Keep believing in the Son, because only those who continue to believe have the Son. Those who don't have the Son because of unbelief don't have eternal life. See the 1 John 2:24, 5:12 verses in my last post.
The steadfastness he is talking about is continued faith in Christ. Don't let anyone deceive you into not believing in Christ anymore. I listed the scriptures for you that show the person who stops believing in Christ is not saved because he does not have Christ/ eternal life. He is not still saved as you insist. Telling people they can go back to unbelief and still be saved is what causes people to fall from the steadfastness of their faith in Christ.
1 John 2:24, 5:12 KJV
24...If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
Tell this to everyone who says you can stop believing and you are still saved. Say it every time they make a post saying you can stop believing and you will still be saved.
Here is where the Bible warns believers to not commit blasphemy of the Spirit:
Hebrews 3: 12-14 KJV
12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end
Such a childish response.
Didn't even address anything to do with what I said.
Typical of people like you.
Can't defend then just attack.
Only those who practice what they preach--that you can stop believing and you are still saved. Reread what I wrote.
2 Peter 1 Warnings about failing away
(10) So then, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election certain, for if you keep on doing this you will never fail.
(11) For in this way you will be generously granted entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus, the Messiah.
(12) Therefore, I intend to keep on reminding you about these things, even though you already know them and are firmly established in the truth that you now have.
Heb 6 Once was saved, but no more
(4) For it is impossible to keep on restoring to repentance time and again people who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have become partners with the Holy Spirit,
(5) who have tasted the goodness of God's word and the powers of the coming age,
(6) and who have fallen away, as long as they continue to crucify the Son of God to their own detriment by exposing him to public ridicule.
Joh 15 Believers cast into the fire
(1) Jesus said to his disciples: I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
(2) He cuts away every branch of mine that doesn't produce fruit. But he trims clean every branch that does produce fruit, so that it will produce even more fruit.
(3) You are already clean because of what I have said to you.
(4) Stay joined to me, and I will stay joined to you. Just as a branch cannot produce fruit unless it stays joined to the vine, you cannot produce fruit unless you stay joined to me.
(5) I am the vine, and you are the branches. If you stay joined to me, and I stay joined to you, then you will produce lots of fruit. But you cannot do anything without me.
(6) If you don't stay joined to me, you will be thrown away. You will be like dry branches that are gathered up and burned in a fire.
Rom 11 Keep trusting or you will be cut off
(17) You Gentiles are like branches of a wild olive tree that were made to be part of a cultivated olive tree. You have taken the place of some branches that were cut away from it. And because of this, you enjoy the blessings that come from being part of that cultivated tree.
(18) But don't think you are better than the branches that were cut away. Just remember that you are not supporting the roots of that tree. Its roots are supporting you.
(19) Maybe you think those branches were cut away, so that you could be put in their place.
(20) That's true enough. But they were cut away because they did not have faith, and you are where you are because you do have faith. So don't be proud, but be afraid.
(21) If God cut away those natural branches, couldn't he do the same to you?
(22) Now you see both how kind and how hard God can be. He was hard on those who fell, but he was kind to you. And he will keep on being kind to you, if you keep on trusting in his kindness. Otherwise, you will be cut away too.
Mat 24 Warning about loosing faith
(13) But if you keep on being faithful right to the end, you will be saved.
Rev 2 Salvation is conditional on remaining faithful to the end
(10) Don't worry about what you will suffer. The devil will throw some of you into jail, and you will be tested and made to suffer for ten days. But if you are faithful until you die, I will reward you with a glorious life.
1Co 9 Paul worries about being castaway
(27) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
(10) So then, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election certain, for if you keep on doing this you will never fail.
(11) For in this way you will be generously granted entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus, the Messiah.
(12) Therefore, I intend to keep on reminding you about these things, even though you already know them and are firmly established in the truth that you now have.
Heb 6 Once was saved, but no more
(4) For it is impossible to keep on restoring to repentance time and again people who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have become partners with the Holy Spirit,
(5) who have tasted the goodness of God's word and the powers of the coming age,
(6) and who have fallen away, as long as they continue to crucify the Son of God to their own detriment by exposing him to public ridicule.
Joh 15 Believers cast into the fire
(1) Jesus said to his disciples: I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
(2) He cuts away every branch of mine that doesn't produce fruit. But he trims clean every branch that does produce fruit, so that it will produce even more fruit.
(3) You are already clean because of what I have said to you.
(4) Stay joined to me, and I will stay joined to you. Just as a branch cannot produce fruit unless it stays joined to the vine, you cannot produce fruit unless you stay joined to me.
(5) I am the vine, and you are the branches. If you stay joined to me, and I stay joined to you, then you will produce lots of fruit. But you cannot do anything without me.
(6) If you don't stay joined to me, you will be thrown away. You will be like dry branches that are gathered up and burned in a fire.
Rom 11 Keep trusting or you will be cut off
(17) You Gentiles are like branches of a wild olive tree that were made to be part of a cultivated olive tree. You have taken the place of some branches that were cut away from it. And because of this, you enjoy the blessings that come from being part of that cultivated tree.
(18) But don't think you are better than the branches that were cut away. Just remember that you are not supporting the roots of that tree. Its roots are supporting you.
(19) Maybe you think those branches were cut away, so that you could be put in their place.
(20) That's true enough. But they were cut away because they did not have faith, and you are where you are because you do have faith. So don't be proud, but be afraid.
(21) If God cut away those natural branches, couldn't he do the same to you?
(22) Now you see both how kind and how hard God can be. He was hard on those who fell, but he was kind to you. And he will keep on being kind to you, if you keep on trusting in his kindness. Otherwise, you will be cut away too.
Mat 24 Warning about loosing faith
(13) But if you keep on being faithful right to the end, you will be saved.
Rev 2 Salvation is conditional on remaining faithful to the end
(10) Don't worry about what you will suffer. The devil will throw some of you into jail, and you will be tested and made to suffer for ten days. But if you are faithful until you die, I will reward you with a glorious life.
1Co 9 Paul worries about being castaway
(27) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I can say what the author says
7. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
you people love to take verses out of context and demand it proves your right. here is ample proof.
IF the earth bring forth thorns and briars (instead of useful herbs) it is NEAR to being cursed.
NEAR means they are not totally cursed, they are near To the point of being cursed.
just like Paul said to the corinthian church, where our works will be tried by fire, even those who have nothing to show but wood hay and straw are still saved, although through fire, with no reward. Near to being cursed.
even in your passage,
IF they fall away,
it does not say they DID fall away, it says IFThey fall away (if can mean if it were possible) and what is the authors response. they can never be renewed to repentance. It’s over, there is no saved not saved saved not saved state like you all love to push, he was arguing against going back to lW.which states when you sin, you are guilty, you are ina lost state, until animal sacrifice redeems you of that sin, and the one big sacrifice at the end redeems all your sins know and unknown, Ie, you have to be renewed to repentance.
thus saying you can lose salvation, as your preaching, PUTS JESUS TO SHAME! Ie, his sacrifice was not sufficient.
this is PROVEN by the fact this same author says by one sacrifice he has PERFECTED forever, those being sanctified.
the autho did not contradict himself,
you people make the Bible a book of contradictions, not fit to be brought into a gods house, because you make it abi le of contradictions,
thats sad!
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Amen
its HIS reputation on the line, not ours
he saved us based on HIS work and HIS promise.to deny us, would mean HE failed.
we always failed. We never lived up. To deny us would also mean at one time we DID live up, and then failed.
that makes him a liar
The work in progress is ongoing sanctification and not justification. There are 3 tenses to salvation. 1. We "have been" (past tense with ongoing present results) saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are "being saved" (present tense) from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We "will be" saved (future tense) from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification) We need to be sure that we do not mix these tenses up. Otherwise we end up teaching salvation by works.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Titus 3: 5 NOT by works of righteousness which we have done but BY HIS MERCY HE SAVED US....
guess paul did not know what he was talking about,