Not By Works

[Ralph-]

Yes, we are saved by grace through faith “apart from the merit of works” (Ephesians 2:8,9) yet authentic faith is not apart from the presence of works (James 2:14-24).

That's why we can not be saved without works. People without works show they do not have the salvation that comes by faith apart from works.

 

[joefizz]

Works are the fruit that we have faith and are saved they are not a measurement to know if we have it or not. It's like a tree that bears fruit, the fruit themselves grow because the tree is healthy not because the tree is a tree. Works alone cannot prove anything even the pharisees did works but they bore no fruits because their tree was a shriveled old branch

Yep any one of us can declare our works and be a fool and yet not wholly believe,or humbly accept Jesus and be wise and wholly believe.

 

[joefizz]

You're getting confused. The question is, "how does one have the assurance that they have really believed in Christ and are saved?" The Bible tells us how. We have the assurance that we have believed in Christ and are really saved by if we have that which accompanies salvation-work. Don't take my word for it. Read it for yourself in Hebrews 6:9-11. That is where it says we have the assurance of our salvation by if we are doing the work that accompanies salvation. So works do matter. You can not be saved when Jesus comes back if you do not have works. That's because works accompany salvation, not because they earn salvation. If works do not accompany your confession of faith in Christ you do not have salvation. Salvation is signified by the changed life. No changed life-no salvation.

you have it "reversed" you are first saved then produce works,no need to "overthink" that's one reason it took me so long to "wholly believe" because I was overanalystic.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

That's why we can not be saved without works. People without works show they do not have the salvation that comes by faith apart from works.

tell that to the thief on the cross



we are saved without works

we recieve Christ and are born again as sinners

and we are saved

boom
its finished

we could die then and still be saved no works of ourself involved

but if we dont

being a new creature

yeah

there is change
we will see it manifest itself in our thoughts and deeds

praise God
i hope all of us are used greatly by Him

 

[UnderGrace]

You missed the words eternal assurance in my post

The apostles tell us clearly the assurance comes from faith in Christ Jesus and not from our works
Now pay attention Ralphie…


Without assurance there are no good works

Our works come from our assurance of eternal life

You contradict the gospel writers by saying that good works BRINGS assurance BUT assurance is what we need to do good works!

Yet, you have made it very clear that you do not believe in the eternal assurance of the believer?

That is exactly the point I'm trying to stress. It doesn't matter if you were never saved to begin with, or if you lost your salvation if you are not saved when Jesus comes back. You will go into the fire either way. That's why once saved always saved is irrelevant to this discussion about works being required to be saved when Jesus comes back.

 

[joefizz]

You're getting confused. The question is, "how does one have the assurance that they have really believed in Christ and are saved?" The Bible tells us how. We have the assurance that we have believed in Christ and are really saved by if we have that which accompanies salvation-work. Don't take my word for it. Read it for yourself in Hebrews 6:9-11. That is where it says we have the assurance of our salvation by if we are doing the work that accompanies salvation. So works do matter. You can not be saved when Jesus comes back if you do not have works. That's because works accompany salvation, not because they earn salvation. If works do not accompany your confession of faith in Christ you do not have salvation. Salvation is signified by the changed life. No changed life-no salvation.

Besides why strain over "if" you are saved?
The bible is clear on how to be saved,once saved you "let" God/Jesus guide you to what to do and ask him for guidance not merely wonder to yourself about such things,it's a knowing thing if a person doesn't know after so many years that their saved then something is certainly wrong,for what use is "doubt"?

 

[Ralph-]

Works are the fruit that we have faith and are saved they are not a measurement to know if we have it or not. It's like a tree that bears fruit, the fruit themselves grow because the tree is healthy not because the tree is a tree. Works alone cannot prove anything even the pharisees did works but they bore no fruits because their tree was a shriveled old branch

Jesus said the Pharisees appeared righteous on the outside but they were full of hypocrisy and lawlessness-Matthew 23:28. They did not keep the law as so many want to claim. It's impossible to compare them to the obedient Christian who is not lawless. But people are so quick to condemn the successful Christian with the honest and good heart who bears fruit (Luke 8:15) as being nothing more than a deceived Pharisee working his way into the kingdom, but we see that the Bible says that no comparison or similarity exists between the two. The Pharisees were lawless and did not bear fruit. While the obedient Christian is not lawless and bears fruit.

Works really do show if you have faith or not. That is what the Bible says. "show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works"-James 2:18.

 

[joefizz]

tell that to the thief on the cross



we are saved without works

we recieve Christ and are born again as sinners

and we are saved

boom
its finished

we could die then and still be saved no works of ourself involved

but if we dont

being a new creature

yeah

there is change
we will see it manifest itself in our thoughts and deeds

praise God
i hope all of us are used greatly by Him

No kidding I mean it's like saying if someone saved your life and you owe them,that you will wonder on if you should do anything for that person instead of "seeking" to do right by them,Jesus Saved and Rescued us,if a person is still doubting his words of being saved "through him" then they have not let him in yet.

 

[joefizz]

Besides why strain over "if" you are saved?
The bible is clear on how to be saved,once saved you "let" God/Jesus guide you to what to do and ask him for guidance not merely wonder to yourself about such things,it's a knowing thing if a person doesn't know after so many years that their saved then something is certainly wrong,for what use is "doubt"?

And I certainly should know,I didn't get saved and wholly believe until about 3-4 years ago,and I noticed the change,in myself,you don't have to "look for it" you will "feel it".

 

[CND]

what works it?

 

[Ralph-]

tell that to the thief on the cross



we are saved without works

we recieve Christ and are born again as sinners

and we are saved

boom
its finished

we could die then and still be saved no works of ourself involved

but if we dont

being a new creature

yeah

there is change
we will see it manifest itself in our thoughts and deeds

praise God
i hope all of us are used greatly by Him

You're missing the point.
You know if you really got saved the moment you believed by if you have works and persevere to the very end. That's the other part of the Calvinist once saved always doctrine that people are neglecting. You want the 'you can't lose your salvation' part, but you either don't know about or are ignoring the part of that doctrine that says only the truly saved will have works and endure to the very end, or else they were never saved to begin with.

'Boom it's finished' only happened if you really believed to begin with. And we know if you really believed to begin with by if you do not deny Christ and persevere to the very end. If you don't do that 'Boom it's finished' didn't really happen. Understand?

So works ARE required to be saved, not to earn your salvation but because if you don't have them 'Boom it's finished' didn't happen when you first believed. The thief on the cross completed the work of enduring to the very end. Unlike you and I, he was one that resisted to the point of shedding blood in his striving against sin-Hebrews 12:4. He was found faithful and did not deny Christ. He endured to the very end. He showed by doing that that he was really saved. He HAD to do that, or else he would be showing he did not really believe and was saved. Understand?

 

[Ralph-]

You missed the words eternal assurance in my post

The apostles tell us clearly the assurance comes from faith in Christ Jesus and not from our works
Now pay attention Ralphie…


Without assurance there are no good works

Our works come from our assurance of eternal life

You contradict the gospel writers by saying that good works BRINGS assurance BUT assurance is what we need to do good works!

Yet, you have made it very clear that you do not believe in the eternal assurance of the believer?

I posted the scripture references that say what I said. You'll have to post the references you're referring to to make your case.

You will see that you are confusing 'assurance' with 'security'. We have the assurance of our security in Christ by if we have works or not. You can only be assured that you are secure in Christ and are prepared to meet Jesus when he comes back if you have works. That is what the Bible says.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

You're missing the point.
You know if you really got saved the moment you believed by if you have works and persevere to the very end. That's the other part of the Calvinist once saved always doctrine that people are neglecting. You want the 'you can't lose your salvation' part, but you either don't know about or are ignoring the part of that doctrine that says only the truly saved will have works and endure to the very end, or else they were never saved to begin with.

'Boom it's finished' only happened if you really believed to begin with. And we know if you really believed to begin with by if you do not deny Christ and persevere to the very end. If you don't do that 'Boom it's finished' didn't really happen. Understand?

So works ARE required to be saved, not to earn your salvation but because if you don't have them 'Boom it's finished' didn't happen when you first believed. The thief on the cross completed the work of enduring to the very end. Unlike you and I, he was one that resisted to the point of shedding blood in his striving against sin-Hebrews 12:4. He was found faithful and did not deny Christ. He endured to the very end. He showed by doing that that he was really saved. He HAD to do that, or else he would be showing he did not really believe and was saved. Understand?

nope, youre missing the point....

even though the bible is clear and many have tried to help you...

 

[joefizz]

You're missing the point.
You know if you really got saved the moment you believed by if you have works and persevere to the very end. That's the other part of the Calvinist once saved always doctrine that people are neglecting. You want the 'you can't lose your salvation' part, but you either don't know about or are ignoring the part of that doctrine that says only the truly saved will have works and endure to the very end, or else they were never saved to begin with.

'Boom it's finished' only happened if you really believed to begin with. And we know if you really believed to begin with by if you do not deny Christ and persevere to the very end. If you don't do that 'Boom it's finished' didn't really happen. Understand?

So works ARE required to be saved, not to earn your salvation but because if you don't have them 'Boom it's finished' didn't happen when you first believed. The thief on the cross completed the work of enduring to the very end. Unlike you and I, he was one that resisted to the point of shedding blood in his striving against sin-Hebrews 12:4. He was found faithful and did not deny Christ. He endured to the very end. He showed by doing that that he was really saved. He HAD to do that, or else he would be showing he did not really believe and was saved. Understand?

Actually no the thief didn't "endure to the end" he "believed" at "his end" particularly "endureth to the end" mainly focuses upon the 144,000 in the tribulation period that Jesus redeems from the earth,for they "endured not to be defiled" and "did not take the mark of tbe beast" Huge difference there.

 

[Ralph-]

And I certainly should know,I didn't get saved and wholly believe until about 3-4 years ago,and I noticed the change,in myself,you don't have to "look for it" you will "feel it".

Joe, I know you have made several posts and I want to address them but I'm too tired to right now. I'll catch them tomorrow hopefully.

 

[joefizz]

nope, youre missing the point....

even though the bible is clear and many have tried to help you...

"for the heart is deceitful above all else and deceiveth",it happens...

 

[joefizz]

Joe, I know you have made several posts and I want to address them but I'm too tired to right now. I'll catch them tomorrow hopefully.

Ok see ya later!

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Joe, I know you have made several posts and I want to address them but I'm too tired to right now. I'll catch them tomorrow hopefully.

you have also lied and tried your best to invoke angry responses back through passive aggressive remarks
and also aggressive remarks...

then deny wrong doings

i cant take you seriously

you flip flop and change the words of others..
and you seriously lack context in most of the verses you post

 

[Ralph-]

Actually no the thief didn't "endure to the end" he "believed" at "his end" particularly "endureth to the end" mainly focuses upon the 144,000 in the tribulation period that Jesus redeems from the earth,for they "endured not to be defiled" and "did not take the mark of tbe beast" Huge difference there.

Read Hebrews 12:4, the verse I cited. He is one of the few of us who DID resist sin to the point of shedding blood. That work of endurance showed he was in fact saved. Had he not endured to the end and instead joined in with the other thief in mocking Jesus he would be showing that he did not believe. His work of enduring was necessary to validate his faith in Christ as being real. No work of enduring would have menat he had no salvation from which that work could flow. He would be showing himself to not be saved. That's why it was necessary for him to have that work. This is the other part of the once save always saved doctrine you and so many others are rejecting. You're all on board with the 'you can't lose your salvation' part. But you have rejected the 'you must endure to the end or you are showing yourself to not really be saved' part. It's all one package. It's the Calvin package of eternal security. It's being replaced by what you're doing-casting off the 'you must endure to the very end' part. It's the new once saved always doctrine in the church.

 

[Ralph-]

you have also lied and tried your best to invoke angry responses back through passive aggressive remarks
and also aggressive remarks...

then deny wrong doings

i cant take you seriously

you flip flop and change the words of others..
and you seriously lack context in most of the verses you post

You were a good kid in the beginning. It hurts me to see you to have been so corrupted by Eternally-gratefull and decontroversail. I'm being honest. It's cutting my heart. You are just like them now.