Not By Works

[Seohce]

Matthew 18:2-9 He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. “And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

1 Corinthians 5:6-8 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.



Romans 3:4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

 

[Seohce]

Matthew 18:21-35 The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. “The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded. “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’ “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”



Romans 3:4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

 

[Magenta]

But growth out of sin is not works.

That could be taken two ways But if I am understanding you correctly, you mean that growing from one state [from the life of sin that comprised the former man pre-salvation] into an ever expanding/greater image of Christ, to the glory of God, is the ongoing, life-long process of sanctification, and not works them self, though works come from this growth, just as a branch grows from the True Vine to eventually produce fruit.

 

[Seohce]

1 Corinthians 5:9-13 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”



Romans 3:4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

 

[Ralph-]

I understand what you are saying, but no one, not one person here in this thread has not had a changed life.

What I'm coming down on is the belief being pushed in this thread that you do not have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back because salvation is not by works, and because you can not lose your salvation once you have it. The once saved always saved argument is irrelevant and I will not let myself be drawn away into that distraction. What is important is that a person not use that argument to conclude they do not have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back. That I will address. That does matter.

 

[Rosemaryx]

What I'm coming down on is the belief being pushed in this thread that you do not have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back because salvation is not by works, and because you can not lose your salvation once you have it. The once saved always saved argument is irrelevant and I will not let myself be drawn away into that distraction. What is important is that a person not use that argument to conclude they do not have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back. That I will address. That does matter.

Genuine faith will always produce good works...xox...

 

[Seohce]

Romans 11:17-22 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. DO NOT BE ARROGANT, BUT BE AFRAID. For if God did not spare the natural branches, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE in his kindness. Otherwise, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.



Romans 3:4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

 

[UnderGrace]

You are still preaching there is no eternal assurance of the believer, just couching it differently.

We either belong to Christ or we do not.

Like I said Jesus does not keep us guessing.

Read my posts. This is what I've been saying. Growth OUT of sin is the sign that you are saved and will go into the kingdom when Jesus returns. No growth and living in your old life is the sign that you are not saved and will not go into the kingdom when Jesus returns-1 Corinthian 6:9-10, Ephesians 5:5, 1 John 3:6-10, Galatians 5:21.

People who are not in process do not belong to Christ. We have to examine ourselves to make sure we belong to Christ. We know if we are or not by how we live. That's called making your calling and election sure-Hebrews 6:11-12, 2 Peter 1:10. Living in your old life unchanged, not progressing toward Christ, shows you are not saved. We can not excuse that kind of life with a 'works don't matter' doctrine that says works don't matter because salvation is not by works.

 

[stillness]

No one argues that Jesus is eternally secure: Abiding in Him, 'it's no longer I that Lives but Christ that Lives in Me." Having given us rest in His death, we no longer have pride of achievement that kept us under the law of sin and death: we are not yet risen or we could boast of having accomplished something more than others who are not. Yet it sais, "If you are then risen with Christ, set your affections on the kingdom of God and not on things on the earth." Having no earthly affections is not prof of having risen but prof of having died with him. "You have not hindered me at all, I die daily." We know that like Jesus, we are not raised the same day we die. So that it is by faith in Him that we are seated (resting) in heavenly places in Christ, where our affections are recalled and our thoughts taken captive in obedience of Christ. "By the influence of Christ (Grace) working in me."
"No one putting his hands to the plow (to live for the praise of God) and looking back is fit for the kingdom of God." The one looking back is not saved and is the old nature, nothing wrong saying the son of perdition: French word that means lost. That leaves the new man, "Christ in you," Living for the praise of God, "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live yet not I but Christ." The mystery of God involves free will, but not the will of the flesh in slavery looking back to Egypt ("For those that are in the flesh cannot please God."), but the will of God left as our inheritance in the communion of the Holy Spirit, ok the communion of the last super but don't forget to have communion of the Spirit. And if any of this is work you have something to brag about in putting others down to feel better about yourself to disqualify you for ruling with Him, but you may be saved through hell and lose your reward.

 

[joefizz]

I know you said that. But you also said you don't have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back. I posted parts of the dialog between us twice as proof. I pointed out that you are trying to work both sides of the argument, and you rush to the safety of whatever side of the argument is convenient for you to be right in a particular discussion.

"saved when Jesus comes back"?
ok that's very "strange" to say,once you accept Jesus as savior and believe in him and know you need him,asking God to save your soul and receive the holy spirit,a person "is saved permanently" there is no "being saved again" now naturally you may be "wording things wrong" and meaning "taken up" or "removed" from the earth,that's different but just in case you aren't,is "clear" how once a person is servant to God/Jesus through salvation (optional water baptism),there is no "turning back" there is no "obtaining or receiving Salvation a second time",the other option would be to "suffer faithfully"through the time of tribulation not accepting the mark of the beast and being redeemed of the earth by Jesus,"before" Judgement day.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

But growth out of sin is not works.

at least not our works

it is of the Holy spirit

 

[blue_ladybug]

That's okay, I can try to find somebody else to ask.

Preacher4Truth, do you mind if I pm you with a question about the bible?

 

[Ralph-]

Genuine faith will always produce good works...xox...

Which is why we must have works, or else we're showing ourselves to not have faith. Works are how we know we have faith and are saved and ready to meet Jesus when He returns. The teaching that says works do not matter is false.

 

[Blain]

Which is why we must have works, or else we're showing ourselves to not have faith. Works are how we know we have faith and are saved and ready to meet Jesus when He returns. The teaching that says works do not matter is false.

Works are the fruit that we have faith and are saved they are not a measurement to know if we have it or not. It's like a tree that bears fruit, the fruit themselves grow because the tree is healthy not because the tree is a tree. Works alone cannot prove anything even the pharisees did works but they bore no fruits because their tree was a shriveled old branch

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Which is why we must have works, or else we're showing ourselves to not have faith. Works are how we know we have faith and are saved and ready to meet Jesus when He returns. The teaching that says works do not matter is false.

no one said they dont matter

people say they dont earn salvation....

if you look to your works

instead of Jesus for assurance

youre in a bad place


this thread isnt called "works dont matter"

its called "not by works"

 

[mailmandan]

no one said they dont matter

people say they dont earn salvation....

if you look to your works

instead of Jesus for assurance

youre in a bad place

this thread isnt called "works dont matter"

its called "not by works"

Yes, we are saved by grace through faith “apart from the merit of works” (Ephesians 2:8,9) yet authentic faith is not apart from the presence of works (James 2:14-24).

 

[Shamah]

no one said they dont matter

people say they dont earn salvation....

if you look to your works

instead of Jesus for assurance

youre in a bad place


this thread isnt called "works dont matter"

its called "not by works"

I am not trying to jump on you but I want to say one thing, but people are claiming exactly what you are saying the thread is not called.

Yet Scripture says different;

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 12:25-26, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. He who loves his life shall lose it, and he who hates his life in this world shall preserve it for everlasting life." Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 25:31-46, “And when the Son of Aḏam comes in His esteem, and all the set-apart messengers with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His esteem. And all the nations shall be gathered before Him, and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the Sovereign shall say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the reign prepared for you from the foundation of the world for I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me, I was in prison and you came to Me. Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry and we fed You, or thirsty and gave You to drink? And when did we see You a stranger and took You in, or naked and clothed You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and we came to You? And the Sovereign shall answer and say to them, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me. He shall then also say to those on the left hand, ‘Go away from Me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his messengers for I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, was naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me. Then they also shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not serve You? Then He shall answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Malachi 3:14-18, “You have said, ‘It is worthless to serve Yah. And what did we gain when we guarded His Charge, and when we walked as mourners before [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]of hosts? And now we are calling the proud blessed – not only are the doers of wrongness built up, but they also try Yah and escape. Then shall those who fear [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]speak to one another, and [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]listens and hears, and a book of remembrance be written before Him, of those who fear [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], and those who think upon His Name. And they shall be Mine,” said [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]of hosts, “on the day that I prepare a treasured possession. And I shall spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him. Then you shall again see the difference between the righteous and the wrong, between one who serves Yah and one who does not serve Him."

YHWH saves, true faith requires works.
[/FONT]

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Yes, we are saved by grace through faith “apart from the merit of works” (Ephesians 2:8,9) yet authentic faith is not apart from the presence of works (James 2:14-24).

amen



people can try to add to or take from this

but the truth is the same

 

[Ralph-]

We either belong to Christ or we do not.

That is exactly the point I'm trying to stress. It doesn't matter if you were never saved to begin with, or if you lost your salvation if you are not saved when Jesus comes back. You will go into the fire either way. That's why once saved always saved is irrelevant to this discussion about works being required to be saved when Jesus comes back.

 

[Ralph-]

no one said they dont matter

people say they dont earn salvation....

if you look to your works

instead of Jesus for assurance

youre in a bad place


this thread isnt called "works dont matter"

its called "not by works"

You're getting confused. The question is, "how does one have the assurance that they have really believed in Christ and are saved?" The Bible tells us how. We have the assurance that we have believed in Christ and are really saved by if we have that which accompanies salvation-work. Don't take my word for it. Read it for yourself in Hebrews 6:9-11. That is where it says we have the assurance of our salvation by if we are doing the work that accompanies salvation. So works do matter. You can not be saved when Jesus comes back if you do not have works. That's because works accompany salvation, not because they earn salvation. If works do not accompany your confession of faith in Christ you do not have salvation. Salvation is signified by the changed life. No changed life-no salvation.