Not By Works

[Ariel82]

3 enough?

Been up over 12 hours...kind of sleepy.

 

[BillG]

Of course I agree.

Let me ask you something.
Have you ever known me to post as I do here?
Then why am I doing it?

Because I see here the work of satan. He delights in seeing us attack one another and put each other down.
The hatred I feel here for Catholics is unbearable to me. THOSE WHO LOVE JESUS ARE OUR BROTHERS, no matter what denomination they belong to.

So, are we conforming to the image of Christ here?
A poster just scolded me for something I didn't even do.

Are we here to discuss the things of God or to get angry at each other?

I won't accept satan's work.

No I haven't and to be honest today I have felt attacked and judged and accused.
I can't recall me getting angry and accusing and condemning others to hell, neither can I see you have.

I am not here to attack and scold, just to talk and discuss.

With regards to your thoughts concerning Catholics and hatred.

A few years ago when I was going through a very hard time, losing my foster parents over a period of 3 months not once did anyone in my church reach out to me.

Who reached out to me? A couple of Catholic friends, in fact the husband went back to Ireland to light a candle and pray for my loss and pain.

Now whilst I do not fully agree with the dogma of the Catholic Chruch (and to be honest I haven't researched their position as of today) there is one thing I have learned

My catholic friends sought me out, lifted me up and asked Jesus to comfort me.

Not one person in my church during this period contacted me during this time. I was sat on a bench overlooking a harbour with tears strolling down my face.

as I was sat their my wife called me and said Enda (Catholic friend) just called me and asked me to let you know he is praying for you and lifting you up.

Thank you Enda my catholic friend.

Anyway today I feel I have been flattened and I feel flatten.

Not sure where I want to go now here.

 

[Grace777x70]

[/COLOR]]Getting saved seems simple because you refuse to read Jesus' words and follow them.

He said to pick up our cross daily if we are to follow Him.
He said to put Him first.

In fact, He made the Law MORE difficult.
If you hate someone (as some here do) you have already murdered that person.
Mathew 5:22

If you just look with lust upon a woman, you have already committed adultery.
Yes. He did make it pretty difficult to be Christian.

So, it's easier to teach cheap grace. Jesus hung on that cross, tortured and bloody and carrying everyone's sin and sins, but let's just keep on talking about how all we have to do is believe. As if we have no part in holding on to our salvation.

That's just plain nonsense Fran what you said in brown above. And to be quite honest with you - if you are going to behave like that - I'm going to have to just ignore you and stop interacting with you because no good can come from this.

I will however this once answer the "take up the cross and follow Me" because it is important to know what Jesus was talking about when He said this statement.

Luke 9:22-25 Take up your cross daily and follow Me. ( Some manuscripts do not have "daily" in Luke 9 as it is also not in Matthew's account ) In context Jesus is talking about going to the Cross and being raised up (Luke 9:22 ).

How do we follow Jesus? What was He really saying to His disciples at the time? We too need to "follow Jesus" to the cross because we need to die and to be raised up with Him to newness of life.

We lost our life when we received Christ when we heard the message of Christ. If we just preached what happened to the believer when he came to Christ and that we became a new creation in Him - that would stop a lot of religious striving and than allow the grace of God to transforms us outwardly and renew our minds to reflect who we truly are now in Christ.

Galatians 2:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I am crucified with Christ = in the Greek is the perfect tense - passive voice construction.

perfect = The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present time. It is continuously happening in the present.

passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it

Without a doubt this verse says that we have died with Christ from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on us....not something we did or do.

Now we reckon ourselves to be dead to sin and alive to God. In other words - agree with what the finished work of Christ has done for us.


Romans 6:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

If we would preach and teach about what happened to us in Christ now that we are a new creation - then His life would shine form and reflect the grace and love of Christ in us to a hurt and dying world. As we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord - we are transformed by the Holy Spirit.

Preach Christ and Him crucified because in that - we too were crucified with Him. We need our minds renewed to the truths of the real gospel of the grace of Christ so that we can grow up in Him.

 

[BillG]

No, no. This is not what I'm talking about.

What I'm asking is:
Is it easier to be told to give a 10% tithe to your Church
OR
Is it easier to be told to give what your heart tells you to give.

This is an example only. I don't want to talk about tithing.

Its easier to give what God has asked us to give, what he has laid on our heart. If it's from the heart then that's what God looks at and is pleased with.

 

[BenFTW]

That's just plain nonsense Fran what you said in brown above. And to be quite honest with you - if you are going to behave like that - I'm going to have to just ignore you and stop interacting with you because no good can come from this.

I will however this once answer the "take up the cross and follow Me" because it is important to know what Jesus was talking about when He said this statement.

Luke 9:22-25 Take up your cross daily and follow Me. ( Some manuscripts do not have "daily" in Luke 9 as it is also not in Matthew's account ) In context Jesus is talking about going to the Cross and being raised up (Luke 9:22 ).

How do we follow Jesus? What was He really saying to His disciples at the time? We too need to "follow Jesus" to the cross because we need to die and to be raised up with Him to newness of life.

We lost our life when we received Christ when we heard the message of Christ. If we just preached what happened to the believer when he came to Christ and that we became a new creation in Him - that would stop a lot of religious striving and than allow the grace of God to transforms us outwardly and renew our minds to reflect who we truly are now in Christ.

Galatians 2:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I am crucified with Christ = in the Greek is the perfect tense - passive voice construction.

perfect = The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present time. It is continuously happening in the present.

passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it

Without a doubt this verse says that we have died with Christ from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on us....not something we did or do.

Now we reckon ourselves to be dead to sin and alive to God. In other words - agree with what the finished work of Christ has done for us.


Romans 6:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

If we would preach and teach about what happened to us in Christ now that we are a new creation - then His life would shine form and reflect the grace and love of Christ in us to a hurt and dying world. As we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord - we are transformed by the Holy Spirit.

Preach Christ and Him crucified because in that - we too were crucified with Him. We need our minds renewed to the truths of the real gospel of the grace of Christ so that we can grow up in Him.

Deserves a rep, good post. It is a fascinating truth the symbolism behind our baptism and the truth that entails about our being born-again. Dying and rising with Christ, being dead to sin and alive unto God.

 

[FranC]

Does the Holy Spirit nor testify to this?

But if you require scriptures I will get them for you.

I like scripture.
I'm not too interested in personal opinions.

 

[Ariel82]

No I haven't and to be honest today I have felt attacked and judged and accused.
I can't recall me getting angry and accusing and condemning others to hell, neither can I see you have.

I am not here to attack and scold, just to talk and discuss.

With regards to your thoughts concerning Catholics and hatred.

A few years ago when I was going through a very hard time, losing my foster parents over a period of 3 months not once did anyone in my church reach out to me.

Who reached out to me? A couple of Catholic friends, in fact the husband went back to Ireland to light a candle and pray for my loss and pain.

Now whilst I do not fully agree with the dogma of the Catholic Chruch (and to be honest I haven't researched their position as of today) there is one thing I have learned

My catholic friends sought me out, lifted me up and asked Jesus to comfort me.

Not one person in my church during this period contacted me during this time. I was sat on a bench overlooking a harbour with tears strolling down my face.

as I was sat their my wife called me and said Enda (Catholic friend) just called me and asked me to let you know he is praying for you and lifting you up.

Thank you Enda my catholic friend.

Anyway today I feel I have been flattened and I feel flatten.

Not sure where I want to go now here.

Oh Bill we love you. Yeah I am feeling kind of flattened too.

Maybe this is a valley we have to trust God to carry us through?

I have seen it go up and down in CC.

When it's night: fighting and bitterness.

When the Holy Spirit is present: true fellowship and healing.
.Jesus said when two or more are gathered and I always counted you as one who uplift.

I feel sad that folks are discouraging you.

 

[Ariel82]

I like scripture.
I'm not too interested in personal opinions.

I can give you a ton of scripture.

I prefer talking to folks led by the Holy Spirit and displaying the fruit there in.

Can you oblige?

 

[FranC]

That's just plain nonsense Fran what you said in brown above. And to be quite honest with you - if you are going to behave like that - I'm going to have to just ignore you and stop interacting with you because no good can come from this.

I will however this once answer the "take up the cross and follow Me" because it is important to know what Jesus was talking about when He said this statement.

Luke 9:22-25 Take up your cross daily and follow Me. ( Some manuscripts do not have "daily" in Luke 9 as it is also not in Matthew's account ) In context Jesus is talking about going to the Cross and being raised up (Luke 9:22 ).

How do we follow Jesus? What was He really saying to His disciples at the time? We too need to "follow Jesus" to the cross because we need to die and to be raised up with Him to newness of life.

We lost our life when we received Christ when we heard the message of Christ. If we just preached what happened to the believer when he came to Christ and that we became a new creation in Him - that would stop a lot of religious striving and than allow the grace of God to transforms us outwardly and renew our minds to reflect who we truly are now in Christ.

Galatians 2:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I am crucified with Christ = in the Greek is the perfect tense - passive voice construction.

perfect = The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present time. It is continuously happening in the present.

passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it

Without a doubt this verse says that we have died with Christ from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on us....not something we did or do.

Now we reckon ourselves to be dead to sin and alive to God. In other words - agree with what the finished work of Christ has done for us.


Romans 6:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

If we would preach and teach about what happened to us in Christ now that we are a new creation - then His life would shine form and reflect the grace and love of Christ in us to a hurt and dying world. As we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord - we are transformed by the Holy Spirit.

Preach Christ and Him crucified because in that - we too were crucified with Him. We need our minds renewed to the truths of the real gospel of the grace of Christ so that we can grow up in Him.

Yes.
I've noticed that when someone comes along that doesn't agree with the crowd here, they're put on ignore.
This is fine with me.

So this is insulting to you:

Originally Posted by FranC;3092279[COLOR=#8B4513

[/COLOR]]Getting saved seems simple because you refuse to read Jesus' words and follow them.

He said to pick up our cross daily if we are to follow Him.
He said to put Him first.

In fact, He made the Law MORE difficult.
If you hate someone (as some here do) you have already murdered that person.
Mathew 5:22

If you just look with lust upon a woman, you have already committed adultery.
Yes. He did make it pretty difficult to be Christian.

So, it's easier to teach cheap grace. Jesus hung on that cross, tortured and bloody and carrying everyone's sin and sins, but let's just keep on talking about how all we have to do is believe. As if we have no part in holding on to our salvation.


That was my post. Pretty nasty stuff. You SHOULD put me on ignore.

But before you go, let me ask you:

Did Jesus NOT up the anty???
Did He NOT make following His Law more difficult?

Before you had to have an affair with a woman,
NOW you can't even look at one with some lust...

What do you think?
You don't even agree with that?

And why are you so upset when someone does not agree with you?
Am I NOT ALLOWED to believe what I believe?

 

[Ariel82]

Deserves a rep, good post. It is a fascinating truth the symbolism behind our baptism and the truth that entails about our being born-again. Dying and rising with Christ, being dead to sin and alive unto God.

Is that what he was trying to say?

Cuz truthfully I couldn't figure it out.

Nor did I see him address anything FranC asked him.

 

[Ariel82]

Jesus showed that the Law that God expects obedience to is internal and not just external holiness.

Without the Holy Spirit, it would be impossible.
.keeping the Law does not save ...

Only Faith in Christ alone does.

Keeping the Law is impossibke without the Holy Spirit and even then we need to talk to Dad daily or we wander after shiny objects and loud noises.

 

[Grace777x70]

Deserves a rep, good post. It is a fascinating truth the symbolism behind our baptism and the truth that entails about our being born-again. Dying and rising with Christ, being dead to sin and alive unto God.

I know. Religion is always getting the gospel and the things of God backwards. They say that we are to die to ourselves daily which is the complete opposite - we are to "live" to our true selves - for we have died and our true life is hidden with Christ in God. We have taken up our cross and followed Christ when we believed and received Him.

Now His life and fruit will be born on us the branches as we abide in Him - which means to rest and rely on His life to be manifested in and through us to show the world our loving Father and Lord's love and grace towards them.

For it is God who is at work in us both to will ( He births within us the desire ) and to do ( He gives us His grace in order to do what His desire has birthed in us ) of His good pleasure. Phil. 2:13

We still have the flesh but again religion gets this backwards too. They say "Stop doing the works of the flesh and you will be walking by the Spirit." - it's really - "walk by the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh to do "it's" desires" - but that is a different subject..

( walking by the spirit = which are the realities of what Christ has already done for us - that we are a new creation in Him - our minds are set on things above. Col. 3:1-4 )

 

[FranC]

John 10
. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me,a is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

Does Jesus hold on to us no matter what?
What if I want to leave?

 

[Ariel82]

Does Jesus hold on to us no matter what?
What if I want to leave?

Why would you want to leave someone who loves you to spend time with a world that tortures you?

Would you let your 5 year old leave the house to play with the "nice" stranger offer him or her candy?

Would God be a worst parent to allow His children to be kidnapped by Satan?

When my kids were young, I held their hands no matter what.

My daughter is now 9 and we skip arm in arm for fun but I still hold her hand to cross the street or in large crowds for safety.

God let's me skip with Him,but during the storms of life, he carries me in His arms.

 

[FranC]

2 Timothy 2:13 ►
New International Version
if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

New Living Translation
If we are unfaithful, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny who he is.

English Standard Version
if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.

Berean Study Bible
if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Berean Literal Bible
if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He is not able to deny Himself.

One version will suffice Ariel. They all say the same thing...

2 Timothy 2:13 is very misunderstood.
I'll be happy to go into it, but it's 11 pm here. Tomorrow, if you write back.

But just quick:

Look at 2 Timothy 2:12
It says "IF we ENDURE, we shallalso reign with Him,
IF we DENY HIM, He also will deny us".

Now, if verse 12 is saying that if we deny Him, He will also deny us,

how could verse 13 be saying that if we are unfaithful, He will remain faithful?
This is a contradiction, and God is not the creator of confusion.

Just Quick:
verse 13 God will Always be faithful to HIMSELF, even if WE are not faithful.
He will be faithful in the sense that He WILL redeem all those who come to Him for salvation. He will BUY THEM BACK from Satan's grip.

He cannot deny Himself... this means that the plan from the beginning of time for the salvation of men will not be changed.
God planned it and God will do this, no matter what.
We could lose faith, but God cannot lose faith in Himself.

I think that explains it well.

 

[Grace777x70]

But before you go, let me ask you:

Did Jesus NOT up the anty???
Did He NOT make following His Law more difficult?

Before you had to have an affair with a woman,
NOW you can't even look at one with some lust...

What do you think?
You don't even agree with that?

And why are you so upset when someone does not agree with you?
Am I NOT ALLOWED to believe what I believe?

I have said many times ( most likely over 20x ) that Jesus was the greatest Law preacher and that He elevated the Law and made it Moses 2.0.

It is that very statement that got some people hostile towards me - including followjesus that you have been conversing with in this thread....that's the ironic thing about this that makes me laugh...

That's the reason why I didn't answer that statement when I answered the others. It's like asking me if I ever said that Jesus died on the cross.

I am not upset if people don't agree with me. People can believe that Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation if they want.

I give my beliefs out in a post and let them lie where they are and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to all of us.

I don't interact with people with bad behavior and say slanderous things like - Getting saved seems simple because you refuse to read Jesus' words and follow them

 

[FranC]

Why would you want to leave someone who loves you to spend time with a world that tortures you?

Would you let your 5 year old leave the house to play with the "nice" stranger offer him or her candy?

Would God be a worst parent to allow His children to be kidnapped by Satan?

When my kids were young, I held their hands no matter what.

My daughter is now 9 and we skip arm in arm for fun but I still hold her hand to cross the street or in large crowds for safety.

God let's me skip with Him,but during the storms of life, he carries me in His arms.

Yes. This all sounds good.

But where does our free will come into play???

Do we have free will?
If God forces us to stay with Him, do we still have free will?

Must go.

 

[Ariel82]

Yes. This all sounds good.

But where does our free will come into play???

Do we have free will?
If God forces us to stay with Him, do we still have free will?

Must go.

Oh I thought I left this debate in the CALVINIST thread..

Guess God really wants me to figure it out eh?

 

[BillG]

Does Jesus hold on to us no matter what?
What if I want to leave?

I think Jesus does. We all want leave at times, well I say leave maybe it's I give up.
.
As a genuine believer we come to a place of giving up but not actually want to leave.

Maybe we get tired and think I have had enough. Jesus knows our heart, given that when our heart is depleted he will come after us and bring us back.

 

[Ariel82]

1. I never thought about it much because I choose to trust God and that is because He cause me to trust Him, His love and His judgement.

I can give my testimony but you probably want a theology position with Bible verses.

Can't give you that,because i haven't formulated it in my head.maybe one day.

Oh but I did learn of two types of free will.