Making a case for women in leadership

[Beckworth]

The early Church Fathers hold the exact opposite opinion.

The early church fathers were men and made mistakes just like ALL MEN. They are not infallible. I’m more interested in what my Heavenly Father says.

 

[Beckworth]

The very first evangelist to proclaim the Lord's resurrection, sent by the risen Lord, Jesus Christ Himself: Mary Magdalene.

Aren’t you forgetting something?? The woman at the well wasn’t in a church assembly—there was no church even in existence at that time; neither was Mary Magdalene. You are really grasping at straws here.

These 2 examples of women talking to others is a far cry from what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor. 14:34–and I’m sure you know that.

 

[Maori_Aussie]

The early church fathers were men and made mistakes just like ALL MEN. They are not infallible. I’m more interested in what my Heavenly Father says.

Why do you think God chose a woman for revelation first so many times?
The Incarnation -> Mary, mother of Jesus
Messiahship -> The Samaritan woman
Resurrection -> Mary Magdelene

 

[Magenta]

Aren’t you forgetting something?? The woman at the well wasn’t in a church assembly—there was no church even in existence at that time; neither was Mary Magdalene. You are really grasping at straws here.

These 2 examples of women talking to others is a far cry from what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor. 14:34–and I’m sure you know that.

Way to deny the revealed written Word of God. Bad look for you. Jesus first sent a woman as much as you hate to admit it. Tant pis.

Get a grip, please. Affirming what Scripture plainly says is not grasping at straws... but you sure are!!

Also, the woman at the well was not sent to testify of the Risen Lord. Please, read your Bible and get your facts straight.

 

[Blain]

Yeah, shouting me down and propping each other up with approval won't change the truth, but I've done enough to make you aware of what the Bible actually says.

So now I'm going to warn the future readers out there:

Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

2 Thessalonians:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

Dear readers, I remind you all of this because a good number of you are already embracing popular false doctrines such OSAS, pre-trib rapture and women in authority in church. It's crucial that you let go of these because in the end they won't serve you well especially if this generation ends up in great tribulation. Love God and His truth, and He will surely empower you endure to the end and enter through the narrow gate.


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I have a question if you are a women and since a church is the body not a vuilding should you not keep silent according to your logic? Should you not be teaching either?

 

[Blain]

This is always a hot topic. Yet Paul wrote as the Holy Spirit led him. He was taught by Christ. In the context of the church setting, women are not to have authority over the men who should be working in the position of their calling. There are many reasons why women have done this but it is not suppose to be. He who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit is says

Jesus said MATTHEW 19

And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”




Matthew 5:32 Jesus said This.


But I say that a man who divorces his wife, unless she has been unfaithful, causes her to commit adultery. You are the reason she is an adulterious. Because women have no other choice once the husband has put her away because she was old or they wanted to move on.


And anyone who marries a divorced woman also commits adultery.

Because men, Husbands and Father's are not doing what God placed thr authority of doing as he did in the Garden of Eden, they have failed to do what God placed on them and thust forcing women to do what is not suppose to be just like when they divorced thier wife because of the hardness of their heart. As Jesus said.

Matthew 5:31

“It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.



Mark 10 says :


2The Pharisees came and asked Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?” testing Him.

3And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?”

4They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her.”

5And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’ 7‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

10 In the house His disciples also asked Him again about the same matter.

11 So He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. 12 And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”


The Husband pushed the issue according to Moses, which Jesus reaffirmed, causing the wife to become labeled with the Letter "A". In the same way men have caused women to do what they are not suppose to do and become what God called men to do. And it will be men who received the greater Judgement.

I agree women should not have authority over men key word over but that isn't to say that they cannot be in leadership I didn't see paul say they cannot lead the church or they cannot be pastors or deacons he just didn't want them to rule over men again key word over

 

[tourist]

The very first evangelist to proclaim the Lord's resurrection, sent by the risen Lord, Jesus Christ Himself: Mary Magdalene.

That she was.

 

[tourist]

A woman pastor prayed for my wife when she was a teen for glaucoma. 2 Doctors said she had about a month before she was completely blind. In a few days she was fully healed.
This pastor was the first to allow me to preach in her church when my own denomination wouldn't let me in their doors. People would go to her for special prayer, including my mother-in-law, & were healed.
She was old time Pentecostal, with the hair bun & all.
If she were alive, It would be a privilege to have her pray for me today.
You, my friend, judged her as an apostate, as well as those who believe the way she does, including me.
I forgive you for that, because I don't want unforgiveness to cause me to throw everything I have in Christ away.

This woman pastor was quite the blessing for you, your wife, and probably others as well.

 

[tourist]

Aren’t you forgetting something?? The woman at the well wasn’t in a church assembly—there was no church even in existence at that time; neither was Mary Magdalene. You are really grasping at straws here.

These 2 examples of women talking to others is a far cry from what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor. 14:34–and I’m sure you know that.

I don't believe that evangelizing is to be strictly limited to a church assembly. How do those who do not attend church receive the Good News if not for evangelist?

 

[Maori_Aussie]

Why do you think God chose a woman for revelation first so many times?
The Incarnation -> Mary, mother of Jesus
Messiahship -> The Samaritan woman
Resurrection -> Mary Magdelene

And the first IMHO to understand the Death of Jesus -> Mary, sister of Lazarus, six days before Passover

 

[Blain]

And the first IMHO to understand the Death of Jesus -> Mary, sister of Lazarus, six days before Passover

yeah he used women for a lot of things and not to mention mary was the one to wash his feet as well the people rebuked it but she did it and no one else thought to do so

 

[Snackersmom]

She gets dumped on a lot because she holds to the original teachings of the Bible - especially the verses that are largely ignored. I just don't like that someone who believes what God says in the Bible to that degree should be picked on.

I've never picked on @Beckworth . This thread is the only time I've even bothered to engage with her. I merely asked for clarification on ONE point she made, because the way it was phrased was potentially dangerous for the well- being of young/naive females in the church. She never clarified her point, so I guess I'll never know what she actually meant. 🤷‍♀️

I'm not calling you apostate, but check what you really believe and hold it up to what the Bible actually says.

Agreed, and same to you! 😊 I will even take it one step further, and agree that our ACTIONS should also line up with what we truly belive the Bible says.

It is fascinating to me that some of the biggest female teachers/correctors on this entire site are here vehemently arguing that women have no authority and should not be teaching. From a psychological standpoint, that's pretty fascinating! 🧐☕😊😁

 

[Dino246]

I agree women should not have authority over men key word over but that isn't to say that they cannot be in leadership I didn't see paul say they cannot lead the church or they cannot be pastors or deacons he just didn't want them to rule over men again key word over

The problem here is the Greek word authentein. It appears just this one place in all Scripture, so there aren't other uses to compare. Further, its use in contemporary Greek shows about 50 nuances of meaning. One must consider the cultural context to get at the meaning Paul intended. There is no reason in the context to conclude that merely "having authority" was the problem.

 

[Blain]

The problem here is the Greek word authentein. It appears just this one place in all Scripture, so there aren't other uses to compare. Further, its use in contemporary Greek shows about 50 nuances of meaning. One must consider the cultural context to get at the meaning Paul intended. There is no reason in the context to conclude that merely "having authority" was the problem.

So it is not an issue of authority but just speaking in general?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

I have a question if you are a women and since a church is the body not a vuilding should you not keep silent according to your logic? Should you not be teaching either?

This was already asked before to Beckworth. I guess you don't read everything in your own thread?

I'm not putting myself in a position of authority anywhere with anybody. So when I share what the Bible says, I'm not enforcing it like a pastor would over his congregation. I'm not saying that I'm the final authority on it that this is what my congregation should follow.

It's such a dumb question. I'm surprised you'd repeat it.


But the REAL issue is that you and other feminist Christians don't fully respect God's ways and what He has set down in His word. You literally don't believe the simple rule that women aren't to teach and be in authority over men which Adam and Eve disobeyed when Eve initiated the sin and Adam followed along. It's one of the earliest sins committed and God punished Eve for her part in it.

This is why Jesus says to people who disobey what the Bible really says will tell these people, "I don't know you!" or "I never knew you!" Because these people simply don't believe Him and ignore what He plainly commands in His word.

I've never picked on @Beckworth . This thread is the only time I've even bothered to engage with her. I merely asked for clarification on ONE point she made, because the way it was phrased was potentially dangerous for the well- being of young/naive females in the church. She never clarified her point, so I guess I'll never know what she actually meant. 🤷‍♀️

Agreed, and same to you! 😊 I will even take it one step further, and agree that our ACTIONS should also line up with what we truly belive the Bible says.

It is fascinating to me that some of the biggest female teachers/correctors on this entire site are here vehemently arguing that women have no authority and should not be teaching. From a psychological standpoint, that's pretty fascinating! 🧐☕😊😁

Good grief, all those words and emojis? You must think I live and die for your approval.

Oh no! @Snackersmom just got snide with me! How will I live?!?? How can I move on?!??

Lol!


🎻

 

[Dino246]

So it is not an issue of authority but just speaking in general?

The immediate context was a woman learning. Paul advised Timothy that "she should learn in quietness and full submission". Well, that's true of all students, male and female: they should learn without arguing or disputing. If they are new to Christian faith, having come out of a cult, it is all the more appropriate that they learn before teaching.

Again, Paul did not say, "I don't permit women" (plural) "to teach or exercise authority over men" (plural). See my post #66 for more information.

 

[Dino246]

But the REAL issue is that you and other feminist Christians

I respect you and agree with most of your posts. On this matter, we differ, and I have chosen not to engage with you directly. However, you have crossed a line here. Don't demean yourself by making ad hominem remarks that have no bearing on the matter. Feminism is a completely different issue.

 

[Blain]

This was already asked before to Beckworth. I guess you don't read everything in your own thread?

I'm not putting myself in a position of authority anywhere with anybody. So when I share what the Bible says, I'm not enforcing it like a pastor would over his congregation. I'm not saying that I'm the final authority on it that this is what my congregation should follow.

It's such a dumb question. I'm surprised you'd repeat it.


But the REAL issue is that you and other feminist Christians don't fully respect God's ways and what He has set down in His word. You literally don't believe the simple rule that women aren't to teach and be in authority over men which Adam and Eve disobeyed when Eve initiated the sin and Adam followed along. It's one of the earliest sins committed and God punished Eve for her part in it.

This is why Jesus says to people who disobey what the Bible really says will tell these people, "I don't know you!" or "I never knew you!" Because these people simply don't believe Him and ignore what He plainly commands in His word.





Good grief, all those words and emojis? You must think I live and die for your approval.

Oh no! @Snackersmom just got snide with me! How will I live?!?? How can I move on?!??

Lol!


🎻

No I don't read every post because I am legally blind I have to take breaks when reading as well because reading strains my eyes so I was unaware this question was asked. And my issue isn't the word of God it is the understanding of it you already show your lack of it by the way you pull verses out of context

So your fine with women speaking but only if they are not in a position of authority is that correct? because if so then that isn't what paul said if we take what he said from women not ebing aloowed to teach or speak in the church then he basically said for them to be silent he didin't say they could teach or speak as long as they aren't in authoirty also if we take his wrods literally then your breaking your own rules

 

[Blain]

1 Timothy 2 makes perfect sense in light of the religious context of Ephesus, where Timothy was working. There were gnostic cults with female teachers who used seduction (authentein, poorly translated as "usurp authority"), taught that a Eve was created first and was completely innocent, and that childbirth was to be avoided. A female convert from such a background would need to learn in silence (as the men did) before teaching.

The pronouns used in 1 Timothy 3 are gender-neutral. The only statement that is directed specifically at men is "husband of one wife", which makes perfect sense in a culture where concubines were common but polyandry was rare.

The man may be the "head" of the woman in 1 Corinthians 11, but it does not say that men (plural) are the head of women, so that "order" has nothing to do with leadership in the Church. The same chapter permits women to pray publicly, so Paul cannot be commanding their silence in 14:35.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35 cannot apply to all women, because not all women were married. I believe those verses are a paraphrased question from the Corinthians, which accounts for Paul's expression of shock in verse 36. There is nothing in the Law (Torah) requiring women to be "in submission" (v. 34); wives to their own husbands, yes, but women in general, no. Paul's response, "Did the word of God come only to you?" makes sense if he's directing that question to the men. Otherwise, that reaction has no rational referent.

Neither the Holy Spirit nor Paul were confused. The same Holy Spirit Who inspired Galatians 3:28 inspired 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians. The same Holy Spirit empowered Priscilla to teach, Chloe to be a deacon, Philip's daughters to prophesy, and Junia to help plant churches. The Holy Spirit still empowers both men and women who say, "Here am I; send me."

O wish we could make a sticky attatched to threads this was very insightful and shows a great deal of understanding

 

[Maori_Aussie]

O wish we could make a sticky attached to threads this was very insightful and shows a great deal of understanding

IMHO it was so good, I copied it into my notes, with Dino's tag.