Loss of salvation???

[Musicmaster]

As opposed to THIS MM:



John 14:15
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.


See.
Easy.
No systematics needed !

You have to keep in mind that He was speaking to a people who were still under the Mosaic Law. Ask your pastor about that and perhaps he will educate you on that. I say that on the basis of this:

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

...and this:

Romans 7:4, 6
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. ...
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Galatians 2:19, 21
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. ...
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Some have had the audacity to try and claim Jesus wasn't talking about the Law, but rather commandments...

Umm, well, what can one say about that nonsense...

But, you're free to try and abide by and live the Law of commandments. Go for it...

MM

 

[Just_A__Follower]

THAT SAID !!

That is quite a statement you've made.

You said that you'd like to see a verse where Jesus literally says we must obey Him.

So you do not believe, after reading the NT, that we are to obey Jesus?

You do not know of any verse where Jesus said that we must obey Him?

You've never come across one.

Sir, I suggest that you read the NT again.
or
Perhaps read all the verses I've been posting for a few days not.

You've written some more STUFF....
but it's irrelevant if you can make a statement such as you've made.


John 14:15
15“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Does KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS mean that you do NOT have to obey Jesus?


John 13:34
34A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.


Jesus gives a new commandment.
Must we obey it?


John 12:48
48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

49 For I did not speak [s]on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”


If we reject Jesus' sayings, we reject HIM.
We must receive/obey His word...His teachings.
His words will be our judge.
God's commandment is eternal life.
Jesus' speaks God's commandment.
If we obey we will have eternal life.



Jesus didn't spend over 3 years teaching that IT COMES NATURALLY.
He taught what we need to do to get to heaven.
He taught that we are to obey Him.

Or we'll be like the foolish man who DID NOT ACT on the words of Jesus....
and his house fell.
Matthew 7:27

I think you may be misunderstanding me. I never said we don’t obey Jesus. I clearly said obedience is essential. My point was about the specific wording “we must obey Him,” not about denying obedience.

When Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” John 14:15, He connects obedience to love. That shows the motivation matters. Obedience flows from faith and love. It’s not separate from them.

I’m not rejecting obedience. I’m emphasizing its source

 

[BillG]

You have to keep in mind that He was speaking to a people who were still under the Mosaic Law. Ask your pastor about that and perhaps he will educate you on that. I say that on the basis of this:

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

...and this:

Romans 7:4, 6
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. ...
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Galatians 2:19, 21
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. ...
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Some have had the audacity to try and claim Jesus wasn't talking about the Law, but rather commandments...

Umm, well, what can one say about that nonsense...

But, you're free to try and abide by and live the Law of commandments. Go for it...

MM

totally agree.

Sadly many overlook

Matthew 15:24
24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

 

[Toknow]

How are we saved?

You're on a Christian Forum BillG.

That's a pretty non-intelligent question.

Maybe you haven't been following along.

 

[Toknow]

I think you may be misunderstanding me. I never said we don’t obey Jesus. I clearly said obedience is essential. My point was about the specific wording “we must obey Him,” not about denying obedience.

When Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” John 14:15, He connects obedience to love. That shows the motivation matters. Obedience flows from faith and love. It’s not separate from them.

I’m not rejecting obedience. I’m emphasizing its source

When Jesus says IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS

He's saying you better keep His commandments.

Again...
the unsaved are not required to keep the commandments of God.

Believers are.


See post 7458 where you stated this:

"I’d love to see the verse where Jesus literally says we must obey Him, because I’ve never come across one. "


Just,,,you don't see a verse where Jesus literally says that we must obey Him because you DO NOT WANT to see it.

I've posted plenty...

AND

I shouldn't even have to post any!

I post that we must obey Jesus
and I get pushback from "christians".
strange.

 

[studier]

I don’t think you get my point at all. But let’s say we must obey. How many commandments must we obey? Every single one of them? 80% of them? 50%? What happens to a person that follows 80% vs a person that follows 50%?

And your thinking about what I understand is likely wrong. There's no hypothetical here, we must obey God, just like we must believe in Jesus Christ if we want His Salvation. How many of His commandments must we obey for what reason - what are you asking?

My point is not at all that we shouldn’t obey or respect God. My point is where it comes from. Plenty of people around the world do the things that God commands. A rich man giving to charity for tax break is not the same as a rich man giving to charity out of his love for God and neighbor. A man giving to charity for his own salvation is not the same as a man giving to charity out of his love for God and neighbor.

Are you sure about that first point? You seem challenged by the word "MUST" as you originally wrote it.

And I do understand your point from there on and just answered it in another post.

 

[Toknow]

The topic was obedience and the reason behind it, but you wrote “obeisance,” which I initially thought was a misspelling of obedience. My apologies for that. Either way, the idea of bowing down in respect and reverence still comes from love.

My main point is that if the things we do are only for our own salvation, then they’re done for self-preservation, which leads to an unhealthy, one-sided relationship with God.

An unhealthy, one-sided relationship is also what some on this thread are advocating.

Seems that they don't like the word MUST,,,as if Jesus makes requests.

Seems that Jesus is not wanted as LORD
but only as SAVIOR.

The NT calls Him LORD
and calls Him SAVIOR

Jesus must be both.

 

[Toknow]

You have to keep in mind that He was speaking to a people who were still under the Mosaic Law. Ask your pastor about that and perhaps he will educate you on that. I say that on the basis of this:

This is not the first time you've ASSUMED something about me.
I've asked you to please not do this.

I don't have a pastor...which by your tone, would be some man that I listen to and obey.

I listen to Jesus.
I hear Jesus.

His words are written in red and we should all proclaim that it is our duty to obey His words.

And I also resent the attitude that I need to be educated.
I've already said to you another time that this is most demeaning and does not take into consideration
the fact that perhaps YOU need the educating.

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

...and this:

Romans 7:4, 6
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. ...
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

As you know I believe there is only one gospel.
Jesus also said He has other sheep.


Did He give THEM different teachings?

Galatians 1:6-9
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you [c]by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel [d]contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be [e]accursed!
9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel [f]contrary to what you received, he is to be [g]accursed!

Galatians 2:19, 21
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. ...

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Some have had the audacity to try and claim Jesus wasn't talking about the Law, but rather commandments...

Umm, well, what can one say about that nonsense...

But, you're free to try and abide by and live the Law of commandments. Go for it...

MM

Again,,,A "Christian" person stating that it's OK to disobey Jesus.

I do wonder by what commandments you are living by....

But it really is of no interest to me.

What does interest me is odd Christian ideology...
and how some cheapen the death of Christ.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

When Jesus says IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS

He's saying you better keep His commandments.

Again...
the unsaved are not required to keep the commandments of God.

Believers are.


See post 7458 where you stated this:

"I’d love to see the verse where Jesus literally says we must obey Him, because I’ve never come across one. "


Just,,,you don't see a verse where Jesus literally says that we must obey Him because you DO NOT WANT to see it.

I've posted plenty...

AND

I shouldn't even have to post any!

I post that we must obey Jesus
and I get pushback from "christians".
strange.

Maybe you should look up the word “tērēsete” and see what it means. John 14:15 implies that keeping His commandments is a result of loving Him.

 

[Toknow]

I think you may be misunderstanding me. I never said we don’t obey Jesus. I clearly said obedience is essential. My point was about the specific wording “we must obey Him,” not about denying obedience.

When Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” John 14:15, He connects obedience to love. That shows the motivation matters. Obedience flows from faith and love. It’s not separate from them.

I’m not rejecting obedience. I’m emphasizing its source

The source of obedience matters not.

Where are we told that there must be some reason to obey?
Jesus said we are to obey Him.

If you could find some scripture as to the reasons,,,
I would be interested.

We ARE told some reasons why we could fall away from our faith.

Some miss that part of scripture too.
So much is missed.

 

[Toknow]

Maybe you should look up the word “tērēsete” and see what it means. John 14:15 implies that keeping His commandments is a result of loving Him.

I don't need the Greek Just.

The English is just fine.

Do you think persons that do not love Jesus are concerned about keeping His commandments?

Have we yet not understood that we're speaking about SAVED PERSONS?

Jesus said
IF YOU LOVE ME
YOU BETTER KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

IF YOU LOVE ME
YOU BETTER KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.

Definitely never read that verse in scripture. Here’s the literal verse in English since you don’t like Greek.

““If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14‬:‭15‬ ‭ESV‬‬

 

[mailmandan]

Definitely never read that verse in scripture. Here’s the literal verse in English since you don’t like Greek.

““If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14‬:‭15‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Amen! Not must or else but WILL keep his commandments IF we love Him.

1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

We love Him because he first loved us. (1 John 4:19)

The love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5)

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Definitely never read that verse in scripture. Here’s the literal verse in English since you don’t like Greek.

““If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14‬:‭15‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Well there you have it.

You're responsible to Jesus now to do what He says since you admit to know what He's talking about.

I know you'll try to get out of it, but don't tell me. Tell your excuses to Lord Jesus.


🕊

 

[Toknow]

Definitely never read that verse in scripture. Here’s the literal verse in English since you don’t like Greek.

““If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14‬:‭15‬ ‭ESV‬‬

I do believe I posted that verse.

You don't seem to understand sarcasm very well.

I do apologize.
I should be very serious and formal since misunderstandings run rampant around here.

I am happy that you actually looked up the verse so as to correct my colloquial language.

So, you see Just....no Greek needed.

Jesus said:

If you love Me
You better do what I say.

 

[Toknow]

Amen! Not must or else but WILL keep his commandments IF we love Him.

1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

We love Him because he first loved us. (1 John 4:19)

The love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5)

You love God so much that you teach that it's not even necessary to obey Him unless you want to, of course.
It's sweet that you want to...
one day you'll understand that we have to.



James 3:1
1Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

 

[Toknow]

Amen! Not must or else but WILL keep his commandments IF we love Him.

1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

We love Him because he first loved us. (1 John 4:19)

The love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5)

For those reading along,,,

I do want to REPEAT for the thousanth time...

that we do have to obey Jesus OR ELSE.

Jesus HIMSELF has stated this,
but you might have missed that part of the NT.

So I'll post it again:


The Wise Man ....... .......... who acted on the words of Jesus.
and The Foolish Man......who did not act on the words of Jesus.



THE WISE MAN ..... he acted on the words of Jesus....his house stood firm.

Matthew 7:24-27
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and [o]acts on them, [p]may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

25 And the rain fell, and the [q]floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.



THE FOOLISH MAN....he did not act on the words of Jesus....his house fell.

26 Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not [r]act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

27 The rain fell, and the [s]floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

 

[studier]

I think you may be misunderstanding me. I never said we don’t obey Jesus. I clearly said obedience is essential. My point was about the specific wording “we must obey Him,” not about denying obedience.

When Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” John 14:15, He connects obedience to love. That shows the motivation matters. Obedience flows from faith and love. It’s not separate from them.

I’m not rejecting obedience. I’m emphasizing its source

It's "essential" but "must" is different and concerns you? Would you like me to link you to an English Dictionary or list of synonyms for 'essential'?

You're misreading this love as motivation issue which John deals with in several more places (John14:23-24; John15:10; 1John5:2-3 where John provides the definition for love of God:

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. (1 Jn. 5:3 NKJ)

• Love for God = keeping God's commandments = at minimum obeying God

Going back to John14:15:

• If you love Me (3rd class condition in Greek - maybe you do, maybe you don't), [then] keep my commandments
  • There is a textual variant in Greek manuscripts but we'll stay with this one for now
  • Jesus is mandating keeping His commandments - obeying Him - because as John later clarifies and defines, Love for God = keeping God's commandments = obeying God

You can look at the other verses provided and see how this works.

This is primarily definition. It goes back to Hebrew parallelism in Exodus and Deut. Loving God is parallel with keeping God's commandments.

Some studies on this will say this is standard language in the old world - to love the king was to obey the king.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

You love God so much that you teach that it's not even necessary to obey Him unless you want to, of course.
It's sweet that you want to...
one day you'll understand that we have to.



James 3:1
1Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

It's not even burdensome to obey God. There are a lot of good benefits to obeying Him.

One of the major benefits to obeying God, is that you don't actually do them alone! You obey God with the Holy Spirit! That results in a shared experience and shared history. It results in a deeper fellowship with God. That's why God wants us to obey Him - He wants a closer relationship where you get know him better at the personal level.

All these people who tell you that you don't have to obey God don't have a close relationship with Him. They don't even know what He likes, what makes Him happy.


🕊

 

[BillG]

You're on a Christian Forum BillG.

That's a pretty non-intelligent question.

Maybe you haven't been following along.

Funny.

There are people on here who don't know how we are saved.

And the above is your response.

Hmmm

I wonder if Jesus would have said what you have said.