I asked what the reason was that we must obey Him. You replied with your reason. I simply pointed out that your reason was self preservation. I guess it struck a nerve because you then falsely accused me of things I didn’t do. Have a good day.
Loss of salvation???
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This is a fair question, but it’s a perfect example of never taking a single verse, or in this case, a couple of words, and develop theology from it.
I think the easiest way to explain this is with a tangible, earthly example.
I loved my father ( earthly) dearly. BUT, I had a very real, and HEALTHY fear of him. When I did wrong, I trembled knowing the discipline that would come.
But I also knew a few other things.
1. My father loved me
2. My father’s discipline would NEVER include him KILLING me!
3. My father’s discipline was designed to get me to behave correctly, because of point 1.
Now you’re going to try and say that our HEAVENLY Father’s discipline will include tossing His kids in the Lake of Fire if they misbehave!?
No. His discipline is designed so that we draw closer to Him, and further from sin.
Not to mention the 365 times in Scripture God tells us to FEAR NOT!
Amazing.
You asked why we MUST - because the Word says we MUST, which I showed you.
What's happened here is that translators changed the word, so I provided its definition to show what it really means. Maybe this will help - see here and here - that's at least 3 witnesses for you but it'll take a little reading.
You and @mailmandan should do a little homework or at least try to pay some attention to those who do.
Did you see on this thread that some connect God disciplining us to God killing some of us - or allowing our death - as part of His discipline?
It's actually a well-known connection of Scriptures.
Your thoughts?
John 4:24 doesn’t say we must obey. It literally describes how we are to worship. That is in spirit and in truth. Worship is to be authentic and heartfelt done out of love and sincerity, flowing from a genuine relationship with God, not from fear or obligation.
IOW, you don't fully understand what proskuneo means and includes, which I knew before I first responded to your post.
We can see Jesus' mindset about it here:
17 When they saw Him, they worshiped/bowed in obeisance to Him; but some doubted/hesitated. 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matt. 28:17-20 NKJ)
- Verse 18 is a fairly gentle reminder not to hesitate to bow to the Christ/King who then issues a series of connected commands to go teach the nations His commands.
- Whether we like it or not, all knees shall bow.
8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship/bow in obeisance to me." (Matt. 4:8-9 NKJ)
- So, Satan wants Jesus to bow in obeisance to him.
- And here Matthew adds "fall down" to show us what this bowing in obeisance is.
So, God wants men who will bow in obeisance to Him - and Jesus wants the same - and Satan wants the same. Our choice but ultimately it'll be done to Jesus Christ. IMO best to have the mindset and orientation now. And, BTW, it's through many reasons that it's done - you don't have a lock on love.
The topic was obedience and the reason behind it, but you wrote “obeisance,” which I initially thought was a misspelling of obedience. My apologies for that. Either way, the idea of bowing down in respect and reverence still comes from love.
My main point is that if the things we do are only for our own salvation, then they’re done for self-preservation, which leads to an unhealthy, one-sided relationship with God.
Yeah, I guess it's quite a jump from bowing to the floor kissing towards His feet in reverent allegiance to doing what He commands.
NKJ Luke 19:27 'But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.'"
ESV Matthew 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
NKJ Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable/abhorrent/detestable/disgusting, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.
Hope you don't mind my providing some elaboration on the meaning of a word here and there and highlighting disobedience, which BTW, is what sin boils down to.
Apology accepted.
Bowing to authority is not only or always love.
And your entire last paragraph is an assumption often alleged against others who don't share one's interpretations. In addition your main point in that paragraph does not automatically lead to your conclusions.
I'd like you and those agreeing with you to see that you're wrong about MUST and obedience to God. You're really out on a limb here. As I said, "must" in John4:24 is the word "dei" which means 'it is necessary' and is used 100+ times in the NC. One of the problems with English translations beyond what I showed re: proskuneō is that they tend to also translate inconsistently. At times we see 'dei' being translated as 'ought' which IMO is pretty weak in normal English and may not convey the necessity.
NKJ Acts 5:29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.
ESV Acts 5:29 But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men.
FWIW here, this is dei + a Greek word that clearly means obey [an authority].
Obeying God is really not optional if we desire relationship with Him.
Last question first. Sorry I meant tautology. I think I was suffering from your problem, no energy when I answered.
Still working backwards, this is how I understand it.
Q.2 What else are you going to do but believe? What else can you do? Remembering here, that if you believe something, you are counting it to be true and act in accordance with that belief. If you don't act in accordance with your belief then you are kidding yourself that you truly believe as you say you do. That leads to the first question.
Q.1 Having believed and stood your ground in whatever the situation is, the word upon which you believed translates/transforms your believing to faith which is assurance. Heb.11:1
An example. You are called to give a talk in front of a crowd and you are very nervous but you believe God's word that He cares for you 1Pet.5:7 and is your ever present help in times of trouble Ps.46:1 and that you need not be afraid. Jn.14:27 You stand on that, even though maybe your knees are shaking, your hands are sweaty and your heart is racing. You don't listen to what your body is saying but rely on God's word to get you through it. Passing that test finds that belief becomes more than you "hanging on to something" but that the word becomes a part of who you are. That is faith. Heb.11:1 There is no fear in faith, there is no doubt in faith and keep in mind, faith is not static. As we apply this process our faith grows and as it grows, the more faith we have to rest in and the less we find ourselves wondering if God's word will work and the less our knees will knock etc.
In a nutshell, faith is the word at work in you, alive and powerful. It's more than us simply believing something. This is why we are told to let the word dwell in us richly and why Jesus would say if His word abides in us we can ask for what we desire and it will be done because that desire will come from the word in us and not simply from our own "wish list". It is why we know that salvation is not of us. We rest in what God has given us in Christ, we don't manufacture it no matter how hard we might believe.
One simply cannot have faith without the word but one can believe anything one wants. One is an act of our will, the other is a gift of God.
Hopefully that has clarified and not confused you more.
You’re right. Bowing to authority isn’t always about love. Sometimes one bows to authority because of duty or obligation. My point was simply that if our actions are done mainly for self-interest, the relationship with God can become one-sided. Genuine devotion and love should be central, even in obedience or respect.
I asked why we must obey God and the first response I got was “to be saved”.
Many people do works to earn Gods love.
Probably based on childhood relationship and that manifest in future relationships.
Sadly they find it difficult to believe that what God says and Jesus backed up that we are/were loved before Jesus was crucified.
Jesus prayed "May they look know that you love them as much as you love me"
Works of obedience are based on love and nothing else.
I don’t think you get my point at all. But let’s say we must obey. How many commandments must we obey? Every single one of them? 80% of them? 50%? What happens to a person that follows 80% vs a person that follows 50%?
My point is not at all that we shouldn’t obey or respect God. My point is where it comes from. Plenty of people around the world do the things that God commands. A rich man giving to charity for tax break is not the same as a rich man giving to charity out of his love for God and neighbor. A man giving to charity for his own salvation is not the same as a man giving to charity out of his love for God and neighbor.
Actually, Just, @2ndTimeIsTheCharm stated truth.
She made a truth statement.
Some want Jesus to be their Savior
BUT NOT their Lord.
Some are afraid of saying Jesus is Lord.
They're afraid of saying we must obey Him.
They're just afraid....
so they went ahead and made up their own religion...
one that Jesus did not teach.
Here is what Jesus taught:
Luke 6:46-48 Jesus said:
46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
47 Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and [ac]acts on them, I will show you whom he is like:
48 he is like a man building a house, who [ad]dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the [ae]torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built.
Yes sir.
We MUST obey Jesus....
He is our Savior
and our Lord.
I get the concerns about the intents & motivations, but they don't concern me as much as they seem to concern others. I think we all have a sense of self-interest, and self-preservation is a very natural instinct within us. We start where we start and it seems silly to have to say, but God is so vastly beyond us in knowledge and understanding that He knows what He's dealing with (John2:24) and knows how to work with it - which is part of what's going on in Scriptures like Phil2:12-13, Rom12:2; Eph4:23; Gal4:19, etc.
Through the growth process we mature to being more like Him. It can take time to become functional as your speaking of, and we're all quite different, but seem to want to see others through our own eyes. As for me, I find that duty and allegiance and a sense of love and reverence and all such things are fairly evenly balanced within me.
FWIW, I've studied this obedience issue in depth and one time distinctly under the prompting and leading of the Spirit on an everyday basis at the start of each day for many weeks or months. And that's just one session among many on the topic. I can tell you that I found the concept to be at the core of many of the most vital words and phrases and other concepts in the Word - IOW it is inextricably attached to them in the Text.
THAT SAID !!
That is quite a statement you've made.
You said that you'd like to see a verse where Jesus literally says we must obey Him.
So you do not believe, after reading the NT, that we are to obey Jesus?
You do not know of any verse where Jesus said that we must obey Him?
You've never come across one.
Sir, I suggest that you read the NT again.
or
Perhaps read all the verses I've been posting for a few days not.
You've written some more STUFF....
but it's irrelevant if you can make a statement such as you've made.
John 14:15
15“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
Does KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS mean that you do NOT have to obey Jesus?
John 13:34
34A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
Jesus gives a new commandment.
Must we obey it?
John 12:48
48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
49 For I did not speak [s]on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”
If we reject Jesus' sayings, we reject HIM.
We must receive/obey His word...His teachings.
His words will be our judge.
God's commandment is eternal life.
Jesus' speaks God's commandment.
If we obey we will have eternal life.
Jesus didn't spend over 3 years teaching that IT COMES NATURALLY.
He taught what we need to do to get to heaven.
He taught that we are to obey Him.
Or we'll be like the foolish man who DID NOT ACT on the words of Jesus....
and his house fell.
Matthew 7:27
Which part was she right about the falsely accusing me part or the self preservation reason for obeying Jesus?
And I have no problem calling Jesus Lord. I take joy in doing so.